Delta integrale 8V ECU wierd problems

[belidirkac]

Hi,

I have a strange problem with my 8v integrale. I have the car completely restored in the last 6 years and now in May when I first started it up I hit a bump.

The car doensn't run on the standard 8V ECU. This was checked with a second OE ECU. Both are working in a friends 8V integrale as they should.

But at the same time the car runs normally on a Dedra 8V turbo ECU and on a 8V integrale KAT ECU. It even works on a 1.6 HF Turbo ECU.

Not only it runs I have driven it for over 900km on the Dedra ECU but on the OE ECU it hardly starts then struggles and is totally unresponsive to throttle blips.

Any ideas?

[Steve Webb]

Hi there, missed this post, sounds a very strange problem. Is the engine a standard non-kat 8v unit?
Have you made any modifications to the engine at all?

To be honest it sounds like the engine is missing a sensor which the original 8v ECU needs a signal from to run, but to be honest I can't see what the 8v ECU would need that the 8v Kat ECU doesn't.

Like you say you've tried with 2 ECUs that you know both work on another car, so you can safely say that the ECU itself is not the problem.

Mpampis_ is the resident ECU guru on here so maybe he can help you out.

[belidirkac]

Hi,

the engine is almost standard. I have the intake camshaft from a NA engine, head is ported, forged pistons and a spesso headgasket. No hard core modifications. Modifications are not the issue as we are not discussing non-optimal performance but basic starting up, tick over and throttle response. On all other ECU's the car is perfectly drivable but on the OE ecu it struggles to start, idles rough, doesnt respond to throttle blips and cuts out.


Integrale 8V, Dedra 2.0 turbo and Delta 1.6 turbo have identical sensors:

-water temperature
-air temperature
-TPS
-APS
-crank position
-cam position
-knock sensor

Delta 8v KAT has an aditional lambda input.

THE CULPRIT:

[hf hpe]

do you try your ECU on other car?
Look inside in ECU, I know some cases with "remaped" ECU's

[belidirkac]

Car tested now with 3 different grale 8V ECUs 2 x standar and 1 chipped. All 3 work normally in a different car.

[Steve Webb]

When you talk about the ECU, do you mean the whole ECU box or just the Chip?

If you have been just swapping the chip I'd suggest swapping out the whole ECU box.

[belidirkac]

When you talk about the ECU, do you mean the whole ECU box or just the Chip?

If you have been just swapping the chip I'd suggest swapping out the whole ECU box.

I am talking about the whole ECU unit! So tested with 3 seperate ECU boxes!


Engine before installation:

[AlfaJack]

Beautiful!

[Steve Webb]

Damn that motor looks brand new. This is now getting to be a really weird problem.

Is the block etc originally a Delta 8v unit?

From what you have said there is no reason I can see why it shouldn't work, yet it doesn't even with multiple ECUs.

Have you got the part number for one of the ECUs that work, and one that doesn't.

I think the standard 8v is IAW 049 WH4E.03/0A0_F6

If we can see what is different between the two, we might be able to figure out whats wrong.

[ebh-mor175]

belidirkac : have you try to exchange the chips between the 2 ECU ?

On my Delta Integrale 16V, suddenly the program on the chip was corrupted

[belidirkac]

Hi,

Thank you. The car has been completely restored in the last 6 years... I have a thread going on Guy Crofts forum.

In short:

BEFORE:



After a lot of cutting and welding came sandblasting and primer:


Than the paintwork:


And the almost finished car:



Of course all the bits got the same treatment!


I tested with this ECUs:

#1 - WH4WE.03/0A0.F6

#2 - WH4WE.03/0A0.F6

#3 - WH4WE.03/0A0.F6 FITTED WITH EVOCARS TUNING EEPROM

#4 - I have 3 additional eeproms 1 original and 2 modified and I swapped them between ECUs and no result!

The working ones:

8V KAT - WH47.08/8PI.55

Dedra turbo - WH473.08/8PI.CB

I noticed yesterday that if i change the ECU when the engine is hot I get a reasonably stable idle without cutting out but as soon as you touch the throttle the engine revs drop. As if you are only letting more air into the engine but no petrol maybe???

[AlfaJack]

Wow! Exceptional!

[belidirkac]

I changed the engine loom last week and there is no difference!

Any ideas?

[Steve Webb]

There has got to be something simple that you have overlooked. Several known good ECU's don't work, now 2 wiring looms don't work, all on a freshly rebuilt engine.
There is something fundamentally wrong here.
Have you been through all the sensors with the workshop manual to make sure you are getting the correct readings?

[belidirkac]

Hi,

I did test all the sensors that could be tested with an Ohm meter and replaced even replaced them later. Also replaced the ones that could not be measured. No difference.

Checked all parts and found I may have found something wrong. I think I have a distributor from a 16V engine and the crank pully (that carries the trigger wheel) is also not the correct one. Can anyone identify it? My eper doesn't recognise the number!



I am not sure if this is it as this would only cause the ignition to be offset and this would be wrong for ALL ECU's probably?

And here you go boys, I made short 10m video of my 6 years long restoration:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8JSjriGeko"]My Lancia Delta Integrale restoration - YouTube[/ame]

[Steve Webb]

Hi,
I am not sure if this is it as this would only cause the ignition to be offset and this would be wrong for ALL ECU's probably?

Just an idea if there is a car you could borrow, maybe you could try one of the ECU's that work in your car into another Integrale 8v and see if it fires up.

Maybe there is a difference with the trigger on the crankshaft.

[Steve Webb]

Oh and great vid of the restoration. Do the 8v's suffer from stress cracks like the Evos?

[belidirkac]

Yes all integrales suffer from the same stress cracks. Don't believe anyone that tells you Evo's are any different

The difference is more or less only on the suspension etc. but the body is the same weak shell. You do have to remember that the body was designed for a 1,3 liter petrol engine and FWD and was then modified to come out in the end as a 2.0 turbo 4wd

Anyway after changing all the sensors, multiple ECU's and the engine harness I set to change the pully+trigger wheel assembly. As some of them differ...

Immediatly after putting the OE pully on I noticed that the trigger wheel is in exactly the same spot...

So I guess this will not solve the issue.

[Steve Webb]

Really not sure what to suggest now, this is a very strange problem. I'd say you need to get the car hooked up to some sort of diagnostics. I think there is definitely something amiss somewhere, and one of the standard 8v sensors is wrong/mis-reporting.

[belidirkac]

Upon discovering I have a wrong trigger wheel and distributor I changed them over the weekend for the correct ones. Despite not being able spot a difference between them I changed them over anyways. But to my shock the car now decided to start and idle normally on the OE ECU. But upon taking the car out for a drive i discovered that car develops a miss-fire each time it reaches about 2800rpm. The engine still works normally with the 8V CAT ECU... I am totally lost now. Will have to dig even deeper.

[Steve Webb]

So with the 8V Cat ECU it revs past 2800 without a problem?

[belidirkac]

YES. The bloody 8V Cat ECU works like a charm....

It seems like the 8V ECU is in some sort of "safety" mode as it looks like I am hitting the revlimiter at 2800rpm.

Better than before but I am running out of ideas what to check.

[Steve Webb]

It does sound as though the ECU is now in a 'safe' mode, or not reading all the sensors correctly.
I had a similar situation once with a split pipe to the Map sensor. The car was making boost, but the ECU wasn't reading it so not adding extra fuel and not running well. Happened around 3k rpm as well.

[belidirkac]

I managed to borrow the IAW ECU tester. But I don't know if I have the right cassette for it! Anyone have the codes of the cassettes?

[belidirkac]

This is the tester... I managed to find a manual for the tester but I cant find the list of modules. And there are too many for me to test... Also I am not sure if I won't fry something if I miss match the ECU and the test module!