cambelt troubles

[wrinx]

In the meanwhile I am buying a 155 3.1 12V tuned bij Savali

...pictures???

wrinx

[Brul(tm)]

Well, for the pictures from the Savali it's a bit late
I haven't had this car that long before the engine started to die SO the Savali ended on the scrab yard

But there is also some "good" news
Today I took some time to do some work on the Q4 after a very long time. I removed the belt and wasn't that happy with what I saw





I don't know what caused this kind of belt damage, but I get a feeling it has something to do something with a belt that was way to tight Looks like the teeth are slowly cut of the belt

Greetings,
Marc

[Evodelta]

Excellent pictures, very rare to see these posted up and interesting they are too. This kind of failure is caused by the belt being too slack or 'foreign objects' getting in there.

[Brul(tm)]

This kind of failure is caused by the belt being too slack or 'foreign objects' getting in there.

What do you mean by too slack
Foreign objects are out of the question I think....
The belt cover is in place and I didn't find any strange objects below the crank at the bottom.

Only thing I am sure about, is that the belt tension was way to much I put the belt back in place and can't hardly twist/move the belt on the long side (the pulling side) of the cam belt.

Based on the pictures it has been confirmed that the belt tension probably was the cause of this failure

Greetings,
Marc

[Evodelta]

If you knew the answer then why ask?

[Brul(tm)]

If you knew the answer then why ask?

I don't have the anwser. I try to explain what I see.
This way I hope to find the anwser or explenation for the cause of the problem presented to me.

The information of a to tight belt, came from a car technician who participates on a dutch forum.

Greetings,
Marc

[Evodelta]

Well I dunno, you wrote: "Only thing I am sure about, is that the belt tension was way to much"

I can't understand how you managed to get the belt off and back on again without disturbing the tensioner?

[Brul(tm)]

I can't understand how you managed to get the belt off and back on again without disturbing the tensioner?

Well, I can explain this. What I did was, when I saw the teeth were missing from the belt.... I role the car forward and backwards so the belt would pick up where there are still teeht on the belt. Maybe this is very stupid or not... I don't know.
Anyhow, this way I managed to get te belt back on without loosening the tensioner. This way I felt that the tension of the belt was wrong (a feeling/I figured).

Greetings,
Marc

[Evodelta]

I had a Gates diagnosis poster in my workshop, but this Dayco one will do the job I guess:



Diagnostic of belt control systems

Detached teeth


POSSIBLE CAUSES:

Tension too low


Loss of tension


Foreign matters
CORRECTIVE ACTIONS

Replace the belt


Check the components integrity


Tension the belt correctly


Check the tensioner fastening


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back | Details (C) Dayco Europe S.r.l.

[Brul(tm)]

I had a Gates diagnosis poster in my workshop, but this Dayco one will do the job I guess:



Diagnostic of belt control systems

Detached teeth


POSSIBLE CAUSES:

Tension too low


Loss of tension


Foreign matters
CORRECTIVE ACTIONS

Replace the belt


Check the components integrity


Tension the belt correctly


Check the tensioner fastening


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back | Details (C) Dayco Europe S.r.l.

Thank you for your reply ! I realy appreciate this!
It is very difficult to take a picture from the belt and the way the teeth came lose from the belt. The camera focusses on the wrong points But if I must describe the belt, it looks like the teeth are cut off or cut lose from the belt And it does this on parts of the belt, not the whole belt.

Greetings,
Marc

[Evodelta]

And some more:





All under the heading of 'Possible loss of tension'.

You have to reverse the engine or pull on certain pulleys to check the tension on the longest run, pushing the car when in gear will apply maximum pressure to the long run and make it tight no matter what the overall tension is.

[arjunior45]

@ Mark

well, I can not comment any of the reasons but my cambelt was exactly like this when I bought the car from the police. 8 valves were bended and ...
Sense then an idea-question is fixed in my head.
Why do the engineers removed the good old chain and started to use these rubber sh@@@ts belts for 'timing'???
Just for the noise - if you want it you can call it 'comfort of ride', but it's the same thing. Or is it just to move to the high sky the cost of a 'regular' service and sell more spare parts? Keep factories going on at common peoples expenses? Have all the 'car industry' going on? ...
Not the place, nor the time to continue with this '...'!

There is a guy who converted the timing belt on a BL Mini 1275 into a proper chain timing set up and I just admire him. Wish I had the time to deal with something similar!!! My Bertone keeps going for more than 10 years with its good old timing chain and revs always up to + 7300 - 7400 rpm without any 'chain problem' at all.

Any way, you have plenty to do and if you ever reach to a conclusion for the causes and how to avoid them, please let us know.

Nick

ps.
Did you ever considered that the timing belt itself was 'aged' when you {or whom else} mount it on the car? You do know, I believe, that 'rubber' things in general lose their flexibility over the years and if the 'anti aging' additive used in their mixture is not the proper one then the 'aging' process {rubber diverts to non flexible 'plastic'} is much more fast! It's the same process with the 'new technology' tires that after 3-4 years, even if they are not used, lose their grip. Tires have the date of production stamped on them {on the sidewalls} for that reason, cambelts DOES NOT! Why?

[Evodelta]

I don't think cambelts are made from real rubber Nick, more likely a synthetic equivalent. The cord you can see which holds them together is Nylon or a para-aramid synthetic fibre (Kevlar to you and I!)

[ecl]

same shit happended to my belt ealier this year. Crappy narrow belt crap........

[arjunior45]

whatever they are made off, I definitively don't like them at all. And the bushes for the suspension as well.

I vote for chains, even if I'm the only one.

Nick

[AlfaJack]

I vote for chains, even if I'm the only one.

You wouldn't be the only one but also I would not mind it if it were a non-contact engine. Our MX5, if the cam belt breaks the pistons do not reach the valves

[Brul(tm)]

Well, there's a lot to tell

My girlfriend wanted to surprise me and made a deal with a local Alfa specialist. The car was towed to the garage for inspection. All of this was supposed to be a surprise, unfortunatly I found out about it.... well that's the short version... I thought it was stolen out of my garage Because of this she had to tell the surprise

But there's good news
The engine runs again without further damage to the valves and pistons. If I knew I was going be that lucky that day, I bought a lottery ticket for sure

The car needs to be made ready for MOT and needs to be insured before I can drive again. This will be done later this week, hopefully.

Greetings,
Marc

[SteveNZ]

Most belts that I have seen damaged like this has been a result of contamination by fuel, oil or grease etc. Ive also seen one do this for no apparent reason that we could find other than the belt being very old (low mileage). Low tension could do it for sure but high tension is not so likely.

There is a remote possibility your sprockets are worn out or damaged too. I would check them very carefully.

Belts are made from Neoprene, Nitrile and probable some other stuff.

For these engines I always use a genuine Fiat/Alfa belt. They do have a slightly different tooth design to the aftermarket ones.

[Brul(tm)]

For these engines I always use a genuine Fiat/Alfa belt. They do have a slightly different tooth design to the aftermarket ones.

I also use original parts for this, that's the only condition I have.
The engine is being looked after by three Alfa specialists, so I am quit confident this is being looked after. I am on my way to take a look, so I will ask if the sprockets are checked.


Greetings,
Marc

[Brul(tm)]

This morning the engine failed again. Can't see any visable damage to the cam belt, but I can't rotate the crank any more and thus no movement of the cams. So I guess this is it then The only way to tell what's wrong now, is taking it appart I guess.

If anybody has a suggestion what I can check, please let me know.

Greetings,
Marc

[AlfaJack]

Sounds like the inevitable - pull it apart

[Brul(tm)]

Sounds like the inevitable - pull it apart

I am going to check one thing first before the "pull it apart" step will be taken.

Greetings,
Marc

[Steve Webb]

As you were chaps, nothing to see here.

[1NRO]

This might be of interest to some http://www.powerenterpriseusa.net/pr...iming_belt.htm bottom of the page. Not cheap though! Quite fancy trying one myself.

Nik

[Brul(tm)]

Thanks for the link Nik
Found about about this belt while trying to read all the interesting threads on the Delphi forum. There's a lot of information and I have way to little time for this at the moment.

I saw they have a belt for the integrale. I know there are two types of belts with different teeth design what seems to be important to choose the right design. Do you know if the kevlar belts have the correct teeth design? And this is also going to effect my choice for a wide belt kit. But that's subject I need to figure out.

Greetings,
Marc