Alternative turbos?

**matias** · 10-01-08, 02:09

I'm using a Gt28rs with inox exhaust manifold (like supersprint), oem interior.

**Steve Webb** · 10-01-08, 09:02

Sorry, I'd forgotten about this thread, I'll dig out the dyno plots and post them up here.

With regards to head bolts etc, from talking to tuners before, the standard head gasket is safe up to about 1.4 -1.5 bar boost, the Spesso gp N gasket is good to 1.7 and its at these sort of levels that you ought to be thinking about 12mm head bolts .

With the T3/T4 hybrid turbo you change the way the engine produces boost, not necessarily the max amount it produces. (boost produced earlier/more boost available further up the rev range)

**Steve Webb** · 10-01-08, 10:48

Here are the plots and summary. BHP/torque drop off so quickly because of a restrictive rear exhaust that was fitted at the time of the plots

**#84** · 10-01-08, 21:10

If you want to use the standard exhaust manifold you can also fit the turbosfrom Volvos 2,5 l. 5-cyl. engines. You have to make an adapter ring but that is cheap and simple. With a Mitsubishi TD04-19T you get a spool up no Garrett T3 can match and a maximum power of about 320 hp. If you go for the KKK-K24 you can get up to about 400 hp. Personally I wouldn't go for a Garrett if I considered a new manifold, simply because they are not top of the line. Best off-shelf turbo today is the twin scroll IHI VF39 (Impreza STI) which can take you to about 350 hp. Various Mitsubishi's are also very good. Otherwise there should be a new Schwitzer (Borg Warner) S1 with a 350 hp capacity and excellent spool up.

The no 1 reason to do modifications is the limited capacity of the compressor in the standard TB0367. But if you want a cheap and simple upgrade I would say that a trim 60 compressor upgrade is a good ?500 investment for 300 hp and unaffected spool up.

I have a KKK-K24 (400 hp) at the moment on standard manifold but I do not use the full potential (only ~320 hp) so I consider a "downgrade". So if anyone is interested in turbo + software (free flow exhaust + uprated fuel pump needed) I might consider to sell the kit.

/Andreas

**wrinx** · 10-01-08, 22:57

Argh, that all confused me

My plan is to get a different manifold a then a T3/T4. I don't want to spend a HUGE amount of money but these parts and a remap is going to be a lot (@?13-1500)!

Can a hybrid be made from my current T3 turbo or is it better to start from new?

wrinx

**RMB-Racing** · 11-01-08, 08:15

Originally Posted by wrinx

Argh, that all confused me

Take it easy! It doesn't have to be that thecnical....

My plan is to get a different manifold a then a T3/T4. I don't want to spend a HUGE amount of money but these parts and a remap is going to be a lot (@?13-1500)!

The best way to go!

Can a hybrid be made from my current T3 turbo or is it better to start from new?

It can, but bare in mind that your bearings and axle maybe need and overhaul, and your turbindeside most likely have little tiny long "openings" (I don't now the exact word)...

When you make a hybrid T3/4 - you use the turbine side from the original T3, and you put the compressorside from a T4 - and voil? you have e relative cheep new turbocharger which can give you approx 400-420 bhp.

So forget about the other thecnical stuff, earlier writen...

wrinx

Webmaster! - Why do I have too post minimum ten words here, before I can submit my post???

**RMB-Racing** · 11-01-08, 08:25

Originally Posted by #84

If you want to use the standard exhaust manifold you can also fit the turbosfrom Volvos 2,5 l. 5-cyl. engines. You have to make an adapter ring but that is cheap and simple. With a Mitsubishi TD04-19T you get a spool up no Garrett T3 can match and a maximum power of about 320 hp. If you go for the KKK-K24 you can get up to about 400 hp. Personally I wouldn't go for a Garrett if I considered a new manifold, simply because they are not top of the line. Best off-shelf turbo today is the twin scroll IHI VF39 (Impreza STI) which can take you to about 350 hp. Various Mitsubishi's are also very good. Otherwise there should be a new Schwitzer (Borg Warner) S1 with a 350 hp capacity and excellent spool up.

The no 1 reason to do modifications is the limited capacity of the compressor in the standard TB0367. But if you want a cheap and simple upgrade I would say that a trim 60 compressor upgrade is a good ?500 investment for 300 hp and unaffected spool up.

I have a KKK-K24 (400 hp) at the moment on standard manifold but I do not use the full potential (only ~320 hp) so I consider a "downgrade". So if anyone is interested in turbo + software (free flow exhaust + uprated fuel pump needed) I might consider to sell the kit.

/Andreas

Why all that "fuzz" about other turbos whit the stock exhaust manifold.

My best advise - if you keep the stock exhaust manifold - is to keep the stock T3 turbo. If you use other chargers with bigger spool time etc. you will very quickly reach the limit for the stock exhaust manifold - and that we don't want! A blown engine could be the worst outcome. Have seen it before on the Lancia Delta?s (16v).

Then its better to just simply remap, and do no other things.

**wrinx** · 11-01-08, 09:56

Originally Posted by RMB-Racing

....but bare in mind that your bearings and axle maybe need and overhaul, and your turbine side most likely have little tiny long "openings" (I don't now the exact word)...

When you make a hybrid T3/4 - you use the turbine side from the original T3, and you put the compressor side from a T4 - and voil? you have e relative cheep new turbocharger which can give you approx 400-420 bhp.

Ahh, I didn't realise it literally was the two halves put together! I thought the internals were changed. Thanks.

Originally Posted by RMB-Racing

Then its better to just simply remap, and do no other things.

Yes, I don't plan to mess with the engine too much...until it breaks!!! I only want about 250-300bhp but I really want the turbo to come in earlier than it does now.

wrinx

**wrinx** · 11-01-08, 10:23

Any good?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/T3-T4-hybrid-T...QQcmdZViewItem

wrinx

**#84** · 11-01-08, 10:34

So, if you don't want more than 250-300 hp and want the turbo to come in earlier I see only one alternative for standard flange and/or exhaust manifold: Mitsubishi TD04-19T. 18T will also work but it no good for higher boost pressures. Theese turbos should be able top locate for €400-700. The last figure is from a Volvo dealer.

If you still want better low en torque and spool up the next step is then to get an exhaust manifold with a) small volume b) cylinders coming next to each other in ignition order separated. A spaghetti manifold (supersprint etc.) solves the b issue excellent. If the diameter of the pipes are correctly chosen (often too big) then it is as good as it can be with that concept with respect to a). To take the concept further you have to make a trade-off between volume and accoustic optimisation (pipe length). With 4-2-1 you can get an even smaller volume which will always be favourable for spool up and better performance at some speeds. With the spaghetti type manifold, 4-1, the efficiency will be better at the engine speeds for whichs it is optimised and top end power will certainly be higher. So, as long as you don't push the concept to the absolute limit in maximum power, a compact exhaust manifold will definitely be better.

The standard manifold is compact, but has too large diameter and no cylinderseparation.

There was a long an interesting thread about this subject a while ago on the evocorner forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/evofo...?msg=15547.152

/A

**wrinx** · 11-01-08, 11:01

This is the manifold I was thinking of....

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=005

wrinx

**wrinx** · 11-01-08, 13:59

Anyone care to advise on these:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=013

Copy??? - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=011

Spa Racing??? - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=013

wrinx

**#84** · 11-01-08, 20:23

The exhaust manifold looks good, maybe except for the seam in the middle of cylinder 4 pipe bend and the manufacturer seems to know what he is talking about. The collector is a bit unique, but it is definitely a good idea to stabilise the fllow before it enters the turbine housing.

The turbochargers: I would say it is a bit risky to buy a turbo you don't know the specification or application for. When the label specifies "cust p/n" then you know it is made for a customer's application and the seller should be able to tell you where it comes from. The GT32 was not watercooled, be aware and don't buy if you are not prepared to take the extra care it requires. The long turbine outlet from the GT32 could complicate the downpipe design/geometry. The Garrett 732409 has for sure a T3-flange but in the wrong direction. It comes from a Hino truck and is therefore Diesel optimised. It might be good, but the turbine material could possibly not be sufficently heat resistant for a Spark Ignition engine.

/A

**wrinx** · 11-01-08, 23:41

Thanks....this reinforces that I need to ask questions here before buying!!!

Does anyone have a good source for t3/4 turbos?

wrinx

**AlfaJack** · 12-01-08, 07:57

Steve, what you want for your is the same as I want for mine, about 300 bhp would do nicely...its just what it needs to be a really drivable car..watching with interest

**wrinx** · 12-01-08, 09:23

That's my plan, but finances will make it a long journey

That's why I want to keep the T3 flange so that I can replace bits one at a time.

Plan is...turbo - manifold - exhaust - remap.

wrinx

**markgq4** · 12-01-08, 10:19

Originally Posted by wrinx

Thanks....this reinforces that I need to ask questions here before buying!!!

Does anyone have a good source for t3/4 turbos?

wrinx

Hi,
when i have looked around ebay at those import turbos (which are very cheap has to be said...)
most/many do not seem to have the wastegate built into the housing/casting, which would then mean needing to add in the cost of an external job and any associated mods.

so theres something else for you to worry about Wrinx !

**wrinx** · 12-01-08, 12:50

Not planning on buying one of the new ones from ebay, they all seem to be made of putty!

Will have to see how the finances go....!

wrinx

**wrinx** · 12-01-08, 22:38

I'm getting more and more confused now....been reading about T3/T4 and T3/TO4E, both appear to be oil cooled only.

Water/oil cooled....what's the difference apart from the obvious!

Where can I get a turbo to fit a Q4 at a reasonable price?

wrinx

**#84** · 13-01-08, 21:51

Well, if you are after a T3/T4 hybrid take a look at the link to the evorner forum in my former post. The user-ID "turbodelt" offers, besides the manifolds he market in that thread, also a range of very competitive T3/T4 turbos in various price/performance levels. I do think his email is info@wumatex.ch. Well, you can check his name in the thread and try the adress first. He seems to be very serious.

But, best 300 hp for money on T3 flange, based on boost build up rpm and spool up, is probably the Mitsubishi TD04-19T.

/A

**wrinx** · 13-01-08, 22:21

Also fitted to Volvo's!

http://www.wothrline.se/accessories/...hargers_p2.htm

Do they bolt straight on or need some fiddling about? I noticed the "tilted outlet" description on the website above.

wrinx

**#84** · 14-01-08, 22:02

The 19T (and probably also the 18T, except for the turbine outlet) should be exchangable with the KKK-K24 I use and refering to that one I have made the following adaptions:

1. A plastic ring on the compressor inlet, since the outer diameter is slightly smaller than on the T3. The T3 has very thick walls in the inlet. (?10-15)

2. A 3.5 mm thick square-to-round adaptor ring between exh manifold and turbine. Machine the ring and then make the shape of the hole with a hand held grinding machine. (?20)

3. The 3" "elbow" between turbine and downpipe. The turbine outlet is angled ~20 degrees forward. This one is casted in the original installation and it holds the lambda sensor. The total assembly was 1 kg lighter with my new turbo and "elbow". (?100)

If you go for this solution I can send you pictures by E-mail.

/A

**wrinx** · 14-01-08, 22:22

Pictures would be good

wrinx

**#84** · 17-01-08, 20:19

I realised I don't have the pictures in digital form - and I will not be in my office, where I have a scanner, in two weeks time. Maybe I have diassembled the turbo and manifold before that so that I can take some digital photos. I just don't understand if it is possible to post pictures on this site or if I need a webpage.....

Send me a private message if you want pictures by E-mail. Maybe I will be able to post pictures here, maybe not

/A