Please help the village idiot

[corriedw]

Gentlemen I have a 101 questions, mostly technical, that surely were answered before, so please be patient.

In South Africa we bumped heads with a new law that do not allow us to roadworthy a left hand drive car after it changed hands. So I have transfered the drivetrain of a Q4 to a widebody. Yes I know it is not original any more!! I got a lot of flack from my local AR club.

I am at the stage where it is the 155s turn to get dollyed up. I want to recondition the engin and up the power properly. Now I am certain that there are more equipment that will need attention. But obviously I do not want to spend money on unnecessary items(The SA currency is at its lowest value in a decade), so I will need the oppinions of the guys who are using their modified cars for a while. I will not be home for the next couple of months and is starting to collect information.

I am a technical (old) guy who think he understand the basics of thermodynanics. I have modified a few Alfas and Uno Turbos as well as turboed two TSs. I used a piggy back system on one and a stand alone management on the other to get the A/F ratio and timing correct.

But I don't know anything about the Q4's electronics. As you will know the normal Alfa do not have a programable chip in the ECU, so this concept is new to me. I changed a programable chip on my Ducati but is totally in the dark as to the processes. Even with the Q4 ECU I would prefer to use a piggy-back chip to adjust the A/F ratio on a dynometer as then I know what is going on.

Does the Q4 ECU use a closed loop system with the Lambda sensor to control the A/F ratio. For instance on the GTVs, with part throttle the ECU has a closed loop system with the Lambda and can not be adjusted. On full throttle the ECU use a map to determine the A/F ratio and this map can be corrected with a piggy back chip. What is the case with the Q4? Will I be able to do that?

I am used to 12.5:1 (rich) A/F ratios that is already smoking, to cool the combustion chamber down. I saw that one poster (Pamphis?) mentioned 11;1 A/F ratio, this is VERY rich. Doesn't the ECU give alarms when the engin run this rich?

To get more power from the engin you need more forced air from the turbo. Then what boost pressure correlate with what engine power? 250wheel hp (I realise that this is already 2x standard hp for an already turboed engine), 300 whp, 350 whp, etc.

I see the refering to the maps(program) for the ECU's chip on the forum. How do the guys get the map on the chip? You will need equipment and programs to load the map, or modify the map on the chip.

Sorry for the noob questions, and laugh, I have a lot more.

Thanks, Corrie

[corriedw]

No takers? Opinions?

Does anybody use ARP bolts on the head, main bearings and big end bearings? I saw Walkers Garage offer stronger bolts and performance conrods. On the TS I struggled(even with 0.8 bar boost) till I went to 1/2 inch studs. You guys go much higher. I believe std conrods are good on a turbo, until you use higher revs then you will need better bolts on Mains and big ends. The performance rods are only needed for very high revs ie 8000rpm.

@Mpampis when you reprogram the ECU can you see degrees for timing advance on the map? I assume you make the timing slower as the boost pressure goes above the std 1 bar limit?

Did anybody tried a 5th injector(or set) on a Q4/Interale?

[Brul(tm)]

I'am sorry, but I can't help you with most of your questions.

Do you have a figure in mind, how much power you want your engine to produce?

[Steve Webb]

Been a little busy this past week so missed this one. Have you taken a look at the ECU page on the website?

http://www.berlinasportivo.com/pages/hexmaps.php

lots of info on there if you are going to be fiddling with the ECU.

Like Brul asks, what sort of figures are you hoping to get at the end of the day. Upto 250bhp is pretty easy on the standard engine internals, above that and you need to look into replacing parts.

All of the Q4 ECU work I've come across has been done by editing the files on the chip rather than using a piggy backed chip so far, but I'd be interested to hear someone do it a different way.

[corriedw]

My first question is who can put the edited file on the chip. For the Ducati I bought the chip and fitted it, much like buying a chip from Squadra and fit it to the ECU. At the moment, if I want to use a bin file, what do I physically do with it? Do I connect a plug to the ECU and play with my computer? I don't think my computer skills are up to it. I just do not know enough to risk an expensive engine??

I was thinking of using 1.5 bar boost and and see what power I get? I read about the 1.7 bar bin file? Am I correct to assume it will run the engine at 1.4 bar with 0.3 overboost?

In South Africa the highest octane available is RON 95. That means I will need the timing to be slower than on the maps in Europe. The idea is to have the retarding function(only 6 deg) to be available to save the engine when something goes wrong. That will explain my question whether degrees can be seen from the map.

The advantage of having the piggy back chip on the car is you/the tuner can adjust the parameters as the car is on the dyno. I would like to use the std ECU for the advantage of the knock sensor. There are not yet a stand alone system available with this function.

From experience we found the if an engine is set up for big power, we can not get economy out of it driving slow. So we started using the std Alfa N/A ECUs and add fuel with a seperate management and a 5th(or seperate set) injector for boost. We found that the TS and v6 management pull the timing back enough with the knock sensor for low pressure boosting(0.5 bar/270whp)

I am trying to relate my previous experience with the, for me, unknown Q4 ECU.

Is there a reason why the guys buy Wosner pistons and not the Cosworths from Walker(price or availability??) I assume both are the std shape of the Q4 piston?

Sorry question/questions?

[corriedw]

Double post

[Suzumushi]

My first question is who can put the edited file on the chip. For the Ducati I bought the chip and fitted it, much like buying a chip from Squadra and fit it to the ECU. At the moment, if I want to use a bin file, what do I physically do with it? Do I connect a plug to the ECU and play with my computer? I don't think my computer skills are up to it. I just do not know enough to risk an expensive engine??

In South Africa the highest octane available is RON 95. That means I will need the timing to be slower than on the maps in Europe. The idea is to have the retarding function(only 6 deg) to be available to save the engine when something goes wrong. That will explain my question whether degrees can be seen from the map.

The advantage of having the piggy back chip on the car is you/the tuner can adjust the parameters as the car is on the dyno. I would like to use the std ECU for the advantage of the knock sensor. There are not yet a stand alone system available with this function.


I am trying to relate my previous experience with the, for me, unknown Q4 ECU.

Is there a reason why the guys buy Wosner pistons and not the Cosworths from Walker(price or availability??) I assume both are the std shape of the Q4 piston?

Sorry question/questions?

1) For ducati it depends what kind of ECU you have, in mine for example with iaw5am or iaw59m you can program it directly from pc using spropriate software and standard KKL cable with 3pin fiat plug.

2) You cannot do such thing with standard Q4 ecu, you have to exchange eproms, eproms are programmed externally, you can find tools (hardware/software) for example on moates site.
You can also use piggyback that can be programmed on the fly (again as example moates ostrich... as far as i remember Jim from australia used these.
You can replace standard ECU to some aftermaket ones but these requires recabling....
And last but probably not least You can rebuild Your original ECU to be able to use all the functions you have now (knocking strategy for example), and many more plus online reprogramming from laptop (RP-Lap for example do such modifications), got one, i was adivsed by mpampis_, bougt one and i'm extreamly happy with that ecu, it has even built in ALS, LC, dual map functions etc....

3) timing can be set on standard ecu, also knocking strategy is well explained in the ECU section of berlinasportivo.com website

4) Are there any advantages of having Cosworths pistons over wossner ?, didn;t hear any, but probably everyone has his favourites.
You can find on berlina shop pistons that was designed and made on request by wosner to integrale spec (also q4) and are not available elswhere (meaby on deltaparts ) so they are different from standard offer from wosner.


regards
WS

[Brul(tm)]

2) You cannot do such thing with standard Q4 ecu

You will need the propper tooling for this I guess.
When I was at Stephan from Squadra Tuning, he changed the mapping on the fly while I was driving. I can't remember what he did exactly, it was ages ago

[Steve Webb]

Yep I've seen this done a number of times, laptop connected down to the ECU via a special cable.

It can be done, but if anyone can do it near you is another question.

You will need the propper tooling for this I guess.
When I was at Stephan from Squadra Tuning, he changed the mapping on the fly while I was driving. I can't remember what he did exactly, it was ages ago

[Suzumushi]

You will need the propper tooling for this I guess.
When I was at Stephan from Squadra Tuning, he changed the mapping on the fly while I was driving. I can't remember what he did exactly, it was ages ago

Yes by using emulator box that can be connected directly to EPROM slot in ECU, but You are programming emulator on the fly, and then burn program from emulator into eeprom
moates ostrich is such emulator.
or meaby i don;t know something

regards

w

[MaxiBoost]

I want to explain some information

a standard Q4 engine (but well working) produce maximum ~240hp at ~1.2 bar boost presure.
(need just a eprom chip and colder spark plug)

Over this you need (at least):
steel head gasket
forged piston
over 280hp forged con rods
bigger injectors
bigger turbo
maybe fuel pump
big intercooler
maybe intercooler water spray
of course eprom chip
cam shaft
varnier pulleys
maybe need more, its change your HP requested. (like other cars)


we have Q4 main ecu eprom adress
like ignition, boost control, injectors data, etc
http://www.berlinasportivo.com/pages/hexmaps.php

when you change eprom data you need (must):
(this is very very importand, because its not a toy
you crack engine easly !)
-first, you need know-how, engine is how is work?
-what is the 155 Q4 engine limits?
-wideband afr display
-egt display
-knock sensor headphone/display
-turbo boost display
-notebook
-tunerpro software
-moates eprom emulator (if you want live tuning)
-eprom writer

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6mzsebj4tdknxqv/ecu.jpg

[Evodelta]

Yes by using emulator box that can be connected directly to EPROM slot in ECU, but You are programming emulator on the fly, and then burn program from emulator into eeprom
moates ostrich is such emulator.
or meaby i don;t know something

regards

w

You can send the ECU away to have it made re-programmable too.

[Suzumushi]

You can send the ECU away to have it made re-programmable too.

And last but probably not least You can rebuild Your original ECU to be able to use all the functions you have now (knocking strategy for example), and many more plus online reprogramming from laptop (RP-Lap for example do such modifications)

regards
w

[corriedw]

[QUOTE=MaxiBoost;25238]I want to explain some information
Over 240 hp you need (at least):
steel head gasket
forged piston
over 280hp forged con rods
bigger injectors
bigger turbo
maybe fuel pump QUOTE]

Thank you guys, I am trying to learn from your previous experiences. No matter what the theory say, now and again our interpretation of it is proven wrong by experience. But it does not always PAY to fit the best, it my not be necessary.

If I look at conrods, all European cars I know of use forged conrods on their engines. Some of the US cars of the '60s and '70 did not and they dit not last when the engines were modified. So they were changed first, from there the expression "hotrod". I have a feeling the Alfa cranks are forged as well if I look at the join-marks on the cranks. The joinmark on most castings are narrow and the join marks on forged parts are wide. Top read expensive forged parts are machined and we can not see the join lines.

But lets stick to conrods for this dicussion. Firstly Q4 and TS engine use identical conrods, and standard redline for the TS is 7200rpm. It is also true that the limits on most engines are determined by piston speed.

In my book it is overkill to use upgraded conrods in an turbo car. It is needed in a race car where the engine is reved to HIGHER rpm. We tend to over-designing due to the uncertain nature of the weak spots. The upgraded product IS better but maybe not needed for a turbo application.

To understand why the structure of an conrod is not seriously affected by the increased power of a turbo charger, it is necessary to look at the basic loads in an engine while it is in operation.

Two basic loads are relevant to conrod structure: inertial and power load. Inertial loads can be tensile(pulling) or compressive(pushing) loads. They must be understood individually and in their interaction, to have a clear view why the turbo do not send the conrod(and crank) south. It must be said in compression conrods are very strong, but in tension the weak point is the conrod bolts and tensile loads induce fatigue failure.

Inertial load result in an object's resistance to motion. A piston always accelerate towards the center of the stroke and acceleration is always highest at the top and bottom of the stroke when the piston accelerate from standstill. This will be the time when the loads are the highest. The size of the loads will be the proportional to the rpm of the engine squared. For example if the engine speed increase threefold, the load will increase to nine times as great.

A piston is pulled to a stop at TDC and pulled down the bore again. Opposed to that, the piston is pushed to a stop at the bottom by the crank and pushed up the bore again. So above the centre line the conrod is in tention and below the centre line in compression. Both of these are inertial loads. Now on compression stroke the fuel mixture already started to burn and so oppose the tensile load of the piston at TDC, but this is not true of the outlet/inlet stroke. THIS is where bottom end trouble lay, these tensile forces are working on the bearing cap bolts. These loads are huge and a large displacement engine at 7000 rpm can devellop inertial loads of 2000kg. It is like having a 4x4 sitting on the conrod bearing. This is the reason for never reving you engine to the redline when standing still(small pressure from burning fuel) This is also the reason for stronger(upgraded) aftermarket rods with high reving racing engines.

Power load results from the pressure of burning of the fuel mixture's expanding gasses. This work in the top half of the piston travel and is always a compressive load.

The peculiar relationship of inertial and power loads is of most interest in the upper half of the engine's stroke. Here we have the odd circumstance the loads working on the conrod is doing so in opposite directions. The difference between the power and inertial load is the real load working on the conrod. This means the tensile load offset some of the power load. So with a turbo's pressure the safe compression load increase and if you do not rev the engine to a higher speed, the loads during intake/exhaust stroke stays the same. There are more pressure on the rings due to the boost which cause increased friction and all companies lower the redline on turbo cars by 500 to 1000 rpm.

So when an engine designer sit down to do stess analysis on conrods he is only interested in the TDC and BDC inertial loads.

As for the Q4 and Integrale as long as you use std redline(5750rpm) the conrods should be safe for any boost application. In my case I want to rev the Q4 to 7000rpm for the odd occation, as there are a lot of power to be had at high revs if the turbo can deliver. I have proofed to myself that the std conrods are strong enough for 7000rpm in a turboed TS. But the piston of a Q4 is very strongly made an is heavier than the BMW pistons I used in the TS. So doubt steps in again and I will use upgraded conrods.

The thought of doubling the engine's torque(doubling the engine's power at the same rpm) easily give one the idea that the power load will double. Thank goodness this is not true.

This is a very short part of this strengh of material discussion.

Upgraded conrods are however necessary for V6 big bore conversions and/or the redline must be brought back considerably to keep the piston speed in check.