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Thread: Fuel pump issue

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    Default Fuel pump issue

    I decided (wrongly) to wash the engine bay of my car the other day. I was relieved when it started back up afterwards and drove home happy.

    Until the little git started splluttering about halfway home and then cut out.

    The issue appears to be fuel pump related, I can always hear it at start up but now it is silent. There have been a few times where it buzzes in and out but its not consistent. I could also hear the pumps relay clicking in and out as the pump pumped/stopped.

    My initial method of 'letting it dry out and keeping my fingers crossed' has somewhat unsurprisingly not worked out and the car still has the same problem after a couple of days.

    The manuals on here only list troubleshooting diagnosis for Twin sparks and V6's (unless i'm being a moron) and as they have a different system it isn't exactly helpful.

    Does anyone know where i might find the proper bit of the manual? Or have any advice on where to start looking for the fault? Everything else electrical appears to be working correctly and the car did run fine for about 3 minutes yesterday before breaking down again during a rather ambitious test drive and leaving me a dejected 10 minute walk home.

    Any advice would be helpful otherwise i'll probably lose my mind trying to blindly look for the fault in a very crowded (albeit now clean) engine bay.

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    I don't know how washing the engine bay would affect the fuel pump. I think it is more likely you need to go round the engine bay with some WD40 on all the leccy connections - starting at the two relays on the bulk head - think one of these is for the fuel pump. Then move on to the crank sensor.

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    How did you wash it? Steam cleaner/Jet wash/product and rinse off?

    I'd be giving anything that looks remotely electrical a squirt with water displacing fluid/wd-40.
    1994 Alfa Romeo 155 Q4: Dozeing in the garage.
    2009 Audi A4 tdi: Everyday drive.
    1994 Alfa Romeo 155 , 1995cc Std Standard Black

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Webb View Post
    How did you wash it? Steam cleaner/Jet wash/product and rinse off?

    Steam cleaner and degreaser, i was pretty careful but still have disturbed something. I sprayed everything up with WD40 but no joy.

    Time to get the multimeter out and start hunting for 12v feeds i think, ill start at the pump relay and work backwards. Should be fun!!!!

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    I found the correct bit of the manual.

    The relay has 12v at the right bits but there is no 12v at the pump.

    Tomorrows task will be to run a wire straight from the relay to the pump and see if I get any joy with that.

    I have read that lots of grale and coupe owners run a feed straight from the battery to a relay relocated in the boot near the pump as apparently there is a problem with voltage drop to the pump. Anyone know anything about this or done it themselves?

    Have run out of light and patience for today. More scrabbling around in round 2 tomorrow

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    I've fitted a relay in the boot of the 155 20vt project
    Alfa 155 Q4 skinny
    Alfa 155 2.0 8v skinny rolling shell being cut up to repair the Q4
    Alfa 155 black wb coupe 20vt engine STAYING NOW
    Alfa 155 White widey soon to be 20vt
    Alfa 155 2.5 v6 white skinny NEXT FOR SALE





    Will build alfa 155 or 145 into 20vt or 16vt or diesel's or selepeed's pm me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alfa Patch View Post
    I found the correct bit of the manual.

    The relay has 12v at the right bits but there is no 12v at the pump.

    Tomorrows task will be to run a wire straight from the relay to the pump and see if I get any joy with that.

    I have read that lots of grale and coupe owners run a feed straight from the battery to a relay relocated in the boot near the pump as apparently there is a problem with voltage drop to the pump. Anyone know anything about this or done it themselves?

    Have run out of light and patience for today. More scrabbling around in round 2 tomorrow
    There is a connector for the feed to the fuel pump in the passenger foot-well area near to the ECU. You might want to take a look under the carpet just in case the problem is completely unrelated to the cleaning. (Wouldn't be the first time.)
    1994 Alfa Romeo 155 Q4: Dozeing in the garage.
    2009 Audi A4 tdi: Everyday drive.
    1994 Alfa Romeo 155 , 1995cc Std Standard Black

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Webb View Post
    There is a connector for the feed to the fuel pump in the passenger foot-well area near to the ECU. You might want to take a look under the carpet just in case the problem is completely unrelated to the cleaning. (Wouldn't be the first time.)
    Ah thats where it is. I was looking for that as i also think it maybe the problem but the manual only shows roughly where it is so i was looking on the otherside of the bulkhead!

    I will still run the wire (loosely outside the car) first just to make sure the problem is not further up the system.

    As you say it certainly wouldn't be the first time that something has broken coincidentally at the same time as a potential cause but the two things are completely unrelated. Can't wait to finish work and get back to the car

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    I think its fairly easy for the passenger to kick the wire and pull the connector apart, especially if the driver is 'pressing on' and causing the passenger concern!
    1994 Alfa Romeo 155 Q4: Dozeing in the garage.
    2009 Audi A4 tdi: Everyday drive.
    1994 Alfa Romeo 155 , 1995cc Std Standard Black

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    Car started and ran fine this morning in the cold. I had to go to work so didn't have time to let it fully warm up but is there anything temperature related that may cause no signal to the fuel pump / ignition?

    Do Q4s have a inertia fuel cut off switch? I had a look under the driver and passenger seats but couldn't find one?

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    Nope there isn't an inertia cut out, (I spent ages looking for one once) the pump is controlled completely by the ECU.
    My fuel pump problem was down to the connector in the passenger footwell.

    Can't think what could be causing the problem if it only happens when the car is warm.
    Are any of the relays etc located under the rear seat? Have you taken a look to check everything is connected ok under there?
    1994 Alfa Romeo 155 Q4: Dozeing in the garage.
    2009 Audi A4 tdi: Everyday drive.
    1994 Alfa Romeo 155 , 1995cc Std Standard Black

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    I have the seats out at the moment as I was trying to find the demister box.

    I haven't disturbed anything but have checked it's all plugged in correctly though.

    I ran a 12v feed straight to the pump yesterday and the car started and ran for about 10 seconds then cut out. Is there a chance that if the ecu doesn't get a return signal from the pump it will shut the ignition/injection down?

    It's a deeply irritating problem. I don't dislike electronics and am usually fairly good with them but this is really pi**ing me off now.

    I have followed the fuel pump diagnostic part of the ecu manual but parts of it require the car to be running in order to establish there is a ground which I haven't been able to do obviously. Finally it says to check for 12v at the connector for the pump and if there's not one then reinstate the wire between pin 87 of the pump relay and the pump. Well I have done this but there is no point as the pin of the relay doesn't have 12v itself. Bizarrely the pin is not part of the earlier diagnostic checks but that seems to be 'a' if not 'the' problem.

    Any advice would be massively appreciated otherwise it looks like the car will be off to a garage (which I can't afford) to troubleshoot. It's probably a waste of time sending it to anyone other than coupe/integrale specialists so labour costs will be stupid plus the cost of getting the car there!!

    I've only had it back 3 weeks since the gearbox was rebuilt and to say I'm frustrated is a massive understatement.

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    Are you able to run the diagnostic software?

    wrinx
    My Q4 in the Garage

    www.alfaromeo155.co.uk ............................ □□□-V-□□□ .................................. www.ilmostro.co.uk

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrinx View Post
    Are you able to run the diagnostic software?

    wrinx
    I'm not but I guess an Alfa dealer could?

    Would this be beneficial? I suppose it can't do any harm

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    I guess the dealer could, but they won't know what a 155 Q4 is!

    You might be better with a local Alfa specialist.

    wrinx
    My Q4 in the Garage

    www.alfaromeo155.co.uk ............................ □□□-V-□□□ .................................. www.ilmostro.co.uk

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    I started the car yesterday evening and it ran. For the first 30 odd seconds there was a slight miss fire. It was barely noticeable and was not consistent but I could hear it because I was listening out for it. After a minute or so it completely went and I ran the car up to temperature allowing the fan to kick in twice before switching it off.

    I immediately turned the ignition back on and got a nice healthy, consistent pumping noise from the fuel pump. The car started up fine and I moved it down the street to get it closer to my house. Again no problems at all.

    It was way too late in the day to be getting stuck somewhere in a broken down Alfa last night but I'll take it for a test run today and keep my fingers crossed.

    Could it really have taken two weeks to dry out? I'm sceptical but it would be nice if it's back to itself as I have some fun bits and pieces to fit to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alfa Patch View Post
    I'm not but I guess an Alfa dealer could?
    Ha Ha Ha! have you ever been into an Alfa main dealer and said you had a Q4?

    I remember having an interesting discussion with a parts guy once. He refused to acknowledge that Alfa had ever made a 2.0L 16v turbo engined 155, and certainly not as early as 1994 (the year of my car) Took a trip outside and a look under the bonnet to get him to finally believe me.

    And yes i can believe its taken 2 weeks to fully dry out. All those rubber boots that are designed to keep water out are very good at keeping water in, if it ever gets in there.

    I suggest you drive around the block a few times to double check it all out.
    1994 Alfa Romeo 155 Q4: Dozeing in the garage.
    2009 Audi A4 tdi: Everyday drive.
    1994 Alfa Romeo 155 , 1995cc Std Standard Black

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    I didnt really mean a "main dealer" but as wrinx suggested an Alfa friendly garage. To be honest most of them don't even know what it is either. I have the proper q4 workshop manual (in its cool red folder) and drop that off with the car whenever I take it anywhere

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    Took the car out tonight and all seems fine. About a 20 minute round trip with no issues whatsoever. Seems that there was something still damp after all this time. Lesson learnt though, I won't be washing the engine bay anytime soon Of course it probably won't start tomorrow now that I've started to trust it again!

    Fitted a bailey recirculating dump valve in now which seems to be working nicely. A very subtle whooshing noise off throttle instead of the 'look at me' chatter it had.

    When the car is on form it puts a massive smile on my face!! Happy again

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    So water appears to be my cars fun new Achilles heel.

    When driving home Friday night in the driving rain the sod decided it would cut out at 2am. Fortunately I was pretty close to home but pushing the car to the side of the road and walking home left me drenched.

    The car started yesterday and ran for long enough to get me home then cut out again. Same today, I left it running outside on the turbo timer and it sat idling for around 15 minutes before again it cut out.

    Does anyone have any ideas on where the fault maybe? When the fault rears its ugly head there is no signal being sent to the fuel pump. However simply running a 12 volt to the pump doesn't keep it running more than about 10 seconds before it dies and won't restart (the pump still pumping).

    All interior electronics function fine although the 'blower' has been working intermittently recently, perhaps due to its resistor thing. The exterior electronics (lights etc) work and there are no warning lights on the dash. The engine cranks fine, oil pressure is fine, the car runs fine when this isnt happening it's very much all or nothing.

    I'm determined to find what's causing this now as even though I don't use the car much I don't want to get stranded everytime it gets wet. My theories extend about as far as earths to the ecu?

    Any and all advice would be massively appreciated.

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    Water in the crank sensor?

    wrinx
    My Q4 in the Garage

    www.alfaromeo155.co.uk ............................ □□□-V-□□□ .................................. www.ilmostro.co.uk

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrinx View Post
    Water in the crank sensor?

    wrinx
    Would that stop the fuel pump pumping? I'll check though, is there a nice irritating cover and loads of other stuff in the way?

    My camshaft sensor is quite exposed, could that cause it? I have tried starting the car with this disconnected by accident a few times but never noticed if it not being connected stops the pump?

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    I think it does, because there's no signal to the ECU...but can't be 100% without checking.

    Does your car have an immobiliser fitted...water getting in there?

    But, reading your post again it could still be the crank sensor simply failing and not because of water ingress. The first signs of failure are cutting out and only restarting after 20-30mins of cooling down...does that sound like yours?

    wrinx
    My Q4 in the Garage

    www.alfaromeo155.co.uk ............................ □□□-V-□□□ .................................. www.ilmostro.co.uk

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    Can you disable or remove the turbo timer?

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    It does although last time this happened it wouldn't start for days at a time sometimes.

    Certainly will try to check it out tomorrow but my house is far from the best place to work on a car.

    The car has an immobilser which does interrupt feed to the pump normally. I guess that could be the cause also. The fact the ignition is not playing ball when the pump has it's own 12v is confusing but perhaps the immobilser also interrupts the injection system some other way. It does appear to be functioning normally though and arming/dealarming doesn't change the problem.

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