FMIC's

[wrinx]

(A) the main radiator has problem to cool the engine enough during hard operation (track day etc) (B) placing an intercooler in front of the radiator makes A even worse

Yes, that aspect has always bothered me about FMIC....as I only intend to go for about 300bhp max I think an enlarged side mount might suit me better

Although I've already cut the front bumper now...

wrinx

[jimnielsen]

before I change my Q4 to an FMIC (of appropriate design of course ) I'd like to measure the intake air temp so that I can compare the data between that of the current intercooler and that of the new.

Does anybody have a datasheet for the standard installed air temp sensor (its in the intake manifold) or know its manufacturer name and part number. I need the info to make sense of the temp info for the datalogger. This way I can use the current one rather than installing a 2nd one (like I have for the map sensor) just to send data to the logger.

thanks, Jimn~

** edit ** i have this document now (see picture..) that shows how the thermistor varies resistance with temperature.... what I need is a table of how the output voltages on pin31 of the ECU (from this sensor) maps temperature to voltage values - because these I can feed direct to the datalogger.

thanks again

[Evodelta]

Temperature logging

before I change my Q4 to an FMIC (of appropriate design of course ) I'd like to measure the intake air temp so that I can compare the data between that of the current intercooler and that of the new.

Does anybody have a datasheet for the standard installed air temp sensor (its in the intake manifold) or know its manufacturer name and part number. I need the info to make sense of the temp info for the datalogger. This way I can use the current one rather than installing a 2nd one (like I have for the map sensor) just to send data to the logger.

thanks, Jimn~

** edit ** i have this document now (see picture..) that shows how the thermistor varies resistance with temperature.... what I need is a table of how the output voltages on pin31 of the ECU (from this sensor) maps temperature to voltage values - because these I can feed direct to the datalogger.

thanks again

The info gathered will be a bit short really Jim, you also need to log ambient temp (which is easy) and the temp at the exit of the turbo.

It then goes like this:

Ambient: 20'c

Temp at exit of turbo: 120'c

Therefore, total temp rise: 100'c

Temp after intercooler: 50'c

Now you have a figure which labels this intercooler as 50% efficient as it cuts the temp from 100 to 50. This you can then use to compare with other people and other intercoolers quite accurately. You have to do it this way because the ambient and turbo exit temp will be different from one car to another.

[Evodelta]

OK you want facts. There are a few q4's here over 300hp. Some of them even more. Which one of them runs the stock intercooler

http://www.redline.lt/magazine/featu.../article/12/1/



this is the only one that comes to my mind, and guess what - 1st it runs a grale cooler, next it is running without one of the hallos, and very possibly with a modified duct. I still believe the cheap ebay FMIC is the easiest and best IC for high boost without modifying the front bumper

On that pic up there - the 4 wholes, next to the halo is the place that the stock IC gets its air

I am sorry, but this contains not very much in the way of hard fact, I could ring up Redline now and tell them I have a 500bhp monster and they would picture it and publish everything I tell them. They didn't do any testing on it.
I get a magazine overhere which features cars like this, when the owner rolls up they strap on some testing equipment and take it round the same test track before publishing the results, some people are dissapointed.....

[j1v]

I am sorry, but this contains not very much in the way of hard fact, I could ring up Redline now and tell them I have a 500bhp monster and they would picture it and publish everything I tell them. They didn't do any testing on it.
I get a magazine overhere which features cars like this, when the owner rolls up they strap on some testing equipment and take it round the same test track before publishing the results, some people are dissapointed.....

And the point of that post was ????

I mentioned that car as the ONLY ONE I've seen doing over 300hp and using the stock IC location (note, location, not stock IC, as was the main topic of the discussion)

BTW, has anyone info about the Q4's that were running in BTCC ? Maybe they were using the stock cooler/location too ? What boost/power where they using ?

Maybe they could be the prove that the stock IC location is not that bad

[j1v]

Evodelta, don't get me wrong, I totally respect your position, and you're right that the only way to be sure about which is better is to do some real tests. As I have neither a dyno, or time to do all the testing and intercooler replacements I assume the following:

Question: How many cars, running FMIC proved to be over 300whp have I seen.
Answer: A lot At least 6-7 here around me. One of them, my own Q4.

Question: How many Q4s in the 300WHP Have I seen running FMIC
Anser: A few. Again, my own is one of them

Question: How many Q4s have I seen with 300WHP running the stock intercooler ? None. Stock location ? Just one

Assumption: Without conditions to do some really precise and expensive test - go the FMIC way, as it is proven

[Evodelta]

I am not saying (and never did) that you should go one way or the other, ('Many roads lead to Rome') I am just pointing out the facts to all of you guys so that you can make an informed decision as to which way you should go. It is true that some compromise must be met for some and you have to make up your own minds where to compromise, in fact, if at all.

All I can do is to impart some knowledge of mine and get you all thinking, sometimes if you push some people they will come back with theory and pics in defence that they wouldn't have done normally so it adds to the discussion and helps us all see what is good and what is not.

Please don't take my posts any other way than this.


Right now I am pushing you a little bit because I want you to throw more and more of yours and others knowledge, pics, experience back to help this disscussion, I cannot debate for long on my own so react in the correct way and do not run away crying. Sit down and have a beer:



Sorry for the diversion, I hope you understand how I operate, now back to the job in hand:

Your current project is very ambitious and exciting and I am surprised you are going on 'assumptions'. I disagree that testing is expensive, it isn't. Time consuming? Yes a little, but the extended knowledge and a more reliable, economical and powerful motor are more than worth it in the end. You do not need a dyno.

I have in the past done projects on my car which I had bad feeling about, I proved myself correct! But I still did them and at least I now have the proof and the reasoning as to why it went wrong and of course, more knowledge.

[wrinx]

BTW, has anyone info about the Q4's that were running in BTCC ? Maybe they were using the stock cooler/location too ? What boost/power where they using ?

BTCC cars were normally aspirated and front wheel drive

From memory the 4wd GTAs featured in 1992 DTM and ITCC.

wrinx

[Evodelta]

http://www.berlinasportivo.com/marqu.../zillinger.php

Some good features on this car.

[j1v]

BTCC cars were normally aspirated and front wheel drive

From memory the 4wd GTAs featured in 1992 DTM and ITCC.

wrinx

Fine 10x , and do we have info about them ? At least the aspects that are on topic - pressure, power and intercooling ?

[Evodelta]

Testing

I got some temp probes and went testing, I tested the standard integrale intercooler on a race track, for the first lap it was ok, then it started to rise and rise, by about lap 3 or 4 the intake charge was reading 65'c, it never got much higher. The ambient temp on the day was about 15'c and the turbo exit temps were about 110.

This told me that for a road car it was ok, as you are not usually able to drive your car for 6 - 8 miles flat out! It was no good for my track car though.

On the road you can usually use full boost in smaller short bursts, in between these the intercooler can be cooled down so it copes well. There is a delayed action with an intercooler, it cools down the charge air and then transfers that heat to the outer of the core where hopefully it is cooled by the moving air. This process isn't instant, it takes a few seconds or minutes, this is why a small cooler on a standard road car is ok. This is also why when you have a manually operated intercooler water spray fitted you have absolutely no idea of when to operate it...

I then decided to design a new 'cooler, the tubes are only 7.5" long, the core is 28 x 3" it is rated at flowing enough air without any restriction up to around 500bhp, it does work below this figure quite well and will work above it, it just tends to start and be restrictive at this stage, but will still work of course.

There is a right way and a wrong way to modify a car, some turn up the boost or fit a bigger turbo and simply force the air through an unmodified (or badly modified) engine and ancillaries, ok, so you get a power increase, it is also awkward to drive and you don't have the power which you would have if you had designed the whole lot correctly.

Modify everything which carries air so it carries more air and you will succeed in every department.

After doing the calculations I made a wooden box the size of the proposed 'cooler, I had a fair bit of re-arranging to do to get it to fit, but got it in eventually:



I was taking a risk, 7.5" of tube, would that really cool the air??? Only one way to find out...

It is very rare to see this type of intercooler fitted, they are labelled as 'downflow coolers' and are only used on very serious projects and mainly in the US, I got a shot of one on a turbocharged Viper at a drag strip near me, it was running about 1000hp:



I thought mine would be the only one on an integrale, then when I had it made I spotted another:

[ame="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5fheILNz4fU"]YouTube - Delta Integrale 982 bhp drag car Greece-Greg[/ame]

Well, at least I had got mine behind the bumper and not nailed to the front of the car.....

All made and fitted it looked like this:



I think they look ugly compared to side flow, maybe this is why they are unpopular.

The re-mapping went well, over 360bhp, no-one had ever had this much power from a standard 16v turbo before. The dyno operator said intake temps maxed at 50'c, this was good as there is little airflow on the rolling road and what there is is warm.

On the track I don't see anymore than 35'c on a warmish 20'c day, all day long.

Here is a test of the OE cooler in a road car flat out for about 1/2 a mile:

[ame="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5UKGSAI8Huc&feature=related"]YouTube - integrale OE intercooler test[/ame]

Please read the info with the clip.

You need to do the sums I pointed out to Jim a few posts back using Ambient 7, turbo exit 90 and manifold intake of 37. As mentioned earlier it does cool the air well in these short burst circumstances, it is also restrictive though, so I am trading cool air for strangling the engine a bit. Note how the temp behind the cooler is similar to the charge air coming out of it, this proves again that it is working well

Here is a test of the new FMIC fitted to my track car:

[ame="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mYEyAaqBbd4&feature=related"]YouTube - 360bhp integrale intercooler test (FMIC)[/ame]

[Evodelta]

DIY

What about making your own intercooler?

Truck intercoolers are great for this, get one cheap from a truck breakers yard. If you know what shape of end tank you need you may well find the correct one, you can cut down the end tanks and the cores to make one to fit your requirements, a quick Google brought up these pictures:

http://www.rcaradiadores.com.br/list...1&pgi=0&pgf=10

Alternatively there are companies who will sell you just a core and the end tanks you need off the shelf, just weld them together....

[Evodelta]

Is that everything? We have covered rough sizing, ducting, how I did it, DIY....

A few more things to round it off:

Pipework

If going for more power it stands to reason you need bigger pipes to carry the air, at around 300bhp 65 - 70mm will do, at around 400bhp 75 is needed.

Try to make as fewer bends as possible and any bends you do have need to be graceful, tight bends are to be avoided if possible as they drop the velocity.

Air flow

We covered airflow to the cooler earlier and I mentioned you needed positive air pressure in front of the 'cooler and negative behind, what this means is that while the cooling air is being pushed in at the front it needs somewhere to go when it comes out of the other side, this is where you need to create a negative pressure zone...

Take a look at the white board under the front of the front bumper here: http://www.berlinasportivo.com/marqu...gerundfrnt.jpg

What happens is the air travels along the underside of this board, when it leaves the rear edge it creates a low pressure zone above it, it's kind of like a vacuum, this means that the air which has gone through the 'cooler is pulled through and away out under the car.

If you don't have pos/neg pressure either side of the 'cooler it will not work very well. I explained earlier how to test it.


Earlier the question of blocking the radiator with the 'cooler was raised, it is a good point and yes it will effect it, ways to help:

Fit a more efficient rad...

Make sure the IC is almost right against the rad, block the gap between the two with a rubber seal, this ensures the air will flow from one to another without stalling inbetween the two.

If you can duct the IC then do so, it is important and helps ram the air straight through it and the rad behind it.

Improve the neg' pressure zone behind the rad to get the air away and draw more cool air in.

Phew! Any questions?

[AlfaJack]

Excellent stuff, thanks for the write up, have just read it start to finish.

Seriously considering an upgrade like Sami's: http://www.halme.fi/Q4/data/intercoolers.jpg

Which temp probes do you use on your 'grale?

I heard they are at risk of breaking up and being sucked through the entire inlet, or those being mounted before the turbo in the exhaust manifold go through the turbo damaging it.

[AlfaJack]

Another question. What about where the air comes from?

Do you recommend re-locating the air filter or having a big cone filter over that of the standard air box and panel filter? Will it help much?
I presume not so much, the temperature of anything being spun and pressurised through the turbo will be raised massively anyway.

Standard airbox:

[Evodelta]

Excellent stuff, thanks for the write up, have just read it start to finish.

Seriously considering an upgrade like Sami's: http://www.halme.fi/Q4/data/intercoolers.jpg

Which temp probes do you use on your 'grale?

I heard they are at risk of breaking up and being sucked through the entire inlet, or those being mounted before the turbo in the exhaust manifold go through the turbo damaging it.

I gave my opinion on that cooler earlier, it looks ok to me.

The temp probes and display can be bought here:

http://www.t-uk.co.uk/docs/icc400.pdf

There is no danger of them breaking up in the inlet pipe if you fix them in place properly. You cannot fix these in the turbo manifold, you need specific EGT probes.

[wrinx]

Seriously considering an upgrade like Sami's: http://www.halme.fi/Q4/data/intercoolers.jpg

I'm thinking the same Jack, either an off the shelf model which is near enough or a custom job...but where to go?

Perhaps an order of two would drop the price a touch?

wrinx

[Evodelta]

Another question. What about where the air comes from?

Do you recommend re-locating the air filter or having a big cone filter over that of the standard air box and panel filter? Will it help much?
I presume not so much, the temperature of anything being spun and pressurised through the turbo will be raised massively anyway.

Standard airbox:

Yes, cool air supply is important, how do you know you are getting it? Testing testing....

A cone filter has advantages over the OE one only if:

It has a bigger surface area.

The paper filter is dirty.

Quite often an extra hole in the OE airbox can help get more air in. Cone filters are noisy and don't filter the air quite as well as paper, they can also suck in warm air from the engine (unless they are partitioned off) where the OE box has a pipe pointing to the front of the car.

[mindus]

Great info Evodelta, thanks.

Am I correct that IC as attached below is of poor design since the will be no "turbulence" for the air to exchange the heat?

M.

[Evodelta]

Yes I would say that is correct, it does depend on the tube length to some degree, the longer they are the more you will lose some heat, but it is not a great design for air cooling, a liquid cooler maybe?

What is it or what is it from? Anymore details or pics?

[Juan AR155Q4]

Great post EVODELTA!!!
And is good to have different opinions on the same subject.

[mindus]

What is it or what is it from? Anymore details or pics?

It says "made in Taiwan". Fitted it to a Q4, but the pipes/tubes are not done yet. But now after reading info in this topic thinking of getting another IC and get rid of this one

The size is:
length 520 mm (20.5")
width 214 mm (8.4") (without thouse brackets on top and bottom)
thickness 60 mm (2.36")
outlet diameter 64mm (2.5")

[Q4Jan]

Thanks for this topic and the "chargecooling" one evodelta, will keep reading.

[Evodelta]

It says "made in Taiwan". Fitted it to a Q4, but the pipes/tubes are not done yet. But now after reading info in this topic thinking of getting another IC and get rid of this one

The size is:
length 520 mm (20.5")
width 214 mm (8.4") (without thouse brackets on top and bottom)
thickness 60 mm (2.36")
outlet diameter 64mm (2.5")

No it doesn't look so good, only some testing will prove everything, but the theory points at it being a bit restrictive and not cooling the air so well. I think if you measured how much blank space you have inside compared with the tube openings and did a calculation you could work out a percentage or ratio and compare it with your original 'cooler.

[Evodelta]

Some people will just never get it: