Boost and waterspray issues

[WhizzMan]

Sorry, but that's rubbish, the chip is mapped to run 1.4 from around 2500 - 3000rpm to the redline, how is a boost controller making it do anything more harmful than this? Answer this please:

What precisely is going to cause 'massive knock' at 1100rpm?

Because the boost controller wil also allow 1.4 at 1100 rpm and that's way too much for that RPM. This will cause the massive knock if your ECU won't intervene by retarding spark and cutting fuel if that won't help. Low RPM, high spark advance combined with much higher boost than optimal for that RPM will cause knock.

You are talking about remapping the car to gain different characteristics at what cost? ?500? I'm talking about a boost controller that will liven up your drive to work for ?25, that isn't comparing like for like.

Of course it isn't comparable, but that doesn't mean your solution is superior, only cheaper. You can get a remap for under UKP 100 by buying one of the "one size fits all" chips, or by burning one yourself from free downloadable examples. If you want to spend a bit more you can buy a squadra tuning chip for E340. A rolling road tuning of your car will cost more, your UKP 500 estimate would most likely be quite accurate. This won't be much use unless you do significant modifications like bolting on a bigger intercooler, change your turbo for another model, change your camshafts etc. etc. If you do such modifications, you would gain from a rolling road tailor-made setup, if you want more grunt from the standard kit, a (squadra)chip is in my opinion superior to bolting on a static boost valve and hardly more expensive.

It's true that a full remap is the way to go to take advantage of any engine mods, but how many of the guys in this thread are going to go to those lengths?

Just changing the very conservative mapping from the factory to a proven working faster one, like Squadra or other chips, will get you much more fun out of your stock setup. I'm sure that someone would be willing to make some chips of the publicly available modified images for beer-money and shipping costs, so that shouldn't be prohibitive. Jim Nielsen is already poking around in the maps to change several parameters so we have at least one member that is making his own chips.

Several people in this thread are already looking at changing cams, swapping turbos etc. so they would benefit from a rolling-road session for tailor made stuff.

[wrinx]

Several people in this thread are already looking at changing cams, swapping turbos etc. so they would benefit from a rolling-road session for tailor made stuff.

...when I begin to understand what's going on

wrinx

[Stuntz]

jim nielsen is using a chip made by my friend and can you eplain to me How the hell will the turbo spool up at 1100 RPM????? We are not useing bang sytems.Even whit WG fully closed i get boost at 2k rpm and further and yes i will have chip reprogramed for my manual set up boost . I used that model that i can set it from the cabin

At Evodelta mine is like this http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MANUAL-BOOST-C...ayphotohosting

I truly have no experience whit it always done by duty cycle is it ok? And i dont want to be rude or enything but whizmann where do you take your knowledge? I took mine form rally car preparation and from my friends.........

[Evodelta]

Because the boost controller wil also allow 1.4 at 1100 rpm and that's way too much for that RPM. This will cause the massive knock if your ECU won't intervene by retarding spark and cutting fuel if that won't help. Low RPM, high spark advance combined with much higher boost than optimal for that RPM will cause knock.

Of course it isn't comparable, but that doesn't mean your solution is superior, only cheaper. You can get a remap for under UKP 100 by buying one of the "one size fits all" chips, or by burning one yourself from free downloadable examples. If you want to spend a bit more you can buy a squadra tuning chip for E340. A rolling road tuning of your car will cost more, your UKP 500 estimate would most likely be quite accurate. This won't be much use unless you do significant modifications like bolting on a bigger intercooler, change your turbo for another model, change your camshafts etc. etc. If you do such modifications, you would gain from a rolling road tailor-made setup, if you want more grunt from the standard kit, a (squadra)chip is in my opinion superior to bolting on a static boost valve and hardly more expensive.



Just changing the very conservative mapping from the factory to a proven working faster one, like Squadra or other chips, will get you much more fun out of your stock setup. I'm sure that someone would be willing to make some chips of the publicly available modified images for beer-money and shipping costs, so that shouldn't be prohibitive. Jim Nielsen is already poking around in the maps to change several parameters so we have at least one member that is making his own chips.

Several people in this thread are already looking at changing cams, swapping turbos etc. so they would benefit from a rolling-road session for tailor made stuff.

:funnypost:


So you think that by fitting a boost controller you can get 1.4 bar at just over tickover?

A chip swap isn't a remap.

I never even implied a manual boost controller is better than a remap, it doesn't even pretend to do the same thing.

I don't think I need to say anymore

[WhizzMan]

The 1100 RPM was an example. You could get pressures like this at 1100 when shifting gears, but only momentarily since the turbo will spool down indeed. My point is, even between 2000 and 6000 rpm the engine works better with the correct max-boost value for that RPM. Swapping chips without changing the maps wouldn't make sense, so yes, it's a remap. Maybe not all values are (drastically) changed, but the whole exercise is done to change maps. You could of course remap the chip to take the manual boost controller into account. But it remains my opinion you will have more overall power (you can of course tune a boost-valve for peak power, so that won't be more with pierburg) and a less "jumpy" powercurve if you use a pierburg controlled by the ECU, than with a static boost-valve.

[juamin]

Im a little bit confused .
My pierburg definitively is not working . My boost is 9/10 psi at 3500rpm +/- . Now, if i install the manual boost controller and set it so the maximum PSI is 14.5 psi (1 bar). There shouldnt be any problem with that, thats right? . Obviously I cant boost 15 psi at 2000rpm because it will blow up to hell jeje. But if i mantanin the RPM VS Boost , it can be done? .
Suposing that i do this, i install the manual boost control and i set it up to 14.5 psi, the ecu will automatically set the fuel, timing ,etc based on the map, lambda and other sensor readings? . To finish, if i exceed for example, 16 psi, the ignition will cut ?


thank youuu =)

buuu nowbody answered me =(

[jimnielsen]

Stuntz is correct in that I am using a set of software that he provided to me. The great thing about it is that its based on 101.04 sw that there is an XDF file for that works with Tuner Pro RT 4.14. So with just a few basic tools you can have a lot of effect. As well, because I'm only really interested in ensuring that I have the maximum possible boost at wide open throttle (without blowing the thing up..) its very easy to make modifications to that specific line of the table that controls the pierburg valve duty cycle. As well, because I have both the basic 101.4 software and the software that Stuntz provided me with, I have created baseline data that shows the relationship between the two at wide open throttle, comparing boost and AFR ratios (using a datalogger). So now its easy for me to modify the software in anyway that I need for my own purposes. And that purpose is simple, because its just a race car, I want the thing to build boost as fast as possible at wide open throttle and to hold it there at (say) 1.3 bar till I have to throttle off for the next corner.

jim.

[Evodelta]

buuu nowbody answered me =(

Early on in the thread you were advised to disconnect the valve and see if your car will hold boost, have you done it yet?

The reasons for lack of boost could fill a five page essay, start with the basic eliminations first!

[Evodelta]

The 1100 RPM was an example. You could get pressures like this at 1100 when shifting gears, but only momentarily since the turbo will spool down indeed .

No it won't. You won't see any boost at 1100rpm no matter what you do (unless we are talking about ant-lag etc). In order to get 1100 whilst on the move you would have to change from a low gear into fifth at about 30mph, go out and try it and then report back.

My point is, even between 2000 and 6000 rpm the engine works better with the correct max-boost value for that RPM..

Not really, if a chip is programmed to give correct fuel at 6000rpm on overboost, then you can get it to hold at the same rpm with a manual boost valve and it will still fuel the car correctly, why would it do any thing else? Overboost on chips are designed just like the factory ones, they peak at a certain pressure and then back off. It's the same story at 3, 4 and 5000rpm, the chip is programmed to fuel correctly at this engine speed, it just won't hold it because it tells the OBV to back off.

Don't dismiss it until you've tried it, then you have grounds for arguement, until then you don't, it's just armchair theory.

Swapping chips without changing the maps wouldn't make sense, so yes, it's a remap. Maybe not all values are (drastically) changed, but the whole exercise is done to change maps. You could of course remap the chip to take the manual boost controller into account. But it remains my opinion you will have more overall power (you can of course tune a boost-valve for peak power, so that won't be more with pierburg) and a less "jumpy" powercurve if you use a pierburg controlled by the ECU, than with a static boost-valve.

A remap is where you take a car and map it live on the rollers or on the road, it is unique to that car and no other, a chip change will never have the precise characteristics for that particular car, every engine is different, especially now over ten years since it was built.

Now tell me this power curve below is 'jumpy', it's of my car with an Evocars chip and a manual boost controller, the fuelling was checked and worked well. Ignore the max figures they are irrelevant, look at the curves, they are exactly what you want from a car, early turbo spool up, power curve climbs steep and straight and doesn't dip, torque comes in as early as you can get it and remains relatively nice and flat throughout the rev range, it barely dips off at the end.

You won't get a graph like that with a standard chip swap and the Pierburg valve fitted........

[wrinx]

Looks good...what are you running to get 276bhp?

Getting very tempted to try one of these boost controllers as I don't like how the boost trails off.

Any recommendations? Would be nice to have an in-car adjustment...

wrinx

[jimnielsen]

I agree with Whizzman that ............


You won't get a graph like that with a standard chip swap and the Pierburg valve fitted........

but its also possible to do if using the pierburg valve and using software uploaded to an emulator so that you can configure both the duty cycle of the pierburg and the injectors with revs.

Jimn~

[juamin]

Early on in the thread you were advised to disconnect the valve and see if your car will hold boost, have you done it yet?

The reasons for lack of boost could fill a five page essay, start with the basic eliminations first!

yes i have done that very carefully and it boosted a lot, i couldn't get the boost meter very well but it was about 17 / 18 psi when the car cut ignition or fuel.

[wrinx]

Sounds reasonable for a standard chip 1.1/1.2bar.

wrinx

[AlfaJack]

I thought the fuel cut happened at 1.5 bar (21.7 psi), does on mine at least.

[Brul(tm)]

I thought the fuel cut happened at 1.5 bar (21.7 psi), does on mine at least.

I had the same experience.

Greetings,
Marc

[wrinx]

I thought the fuel cut happened at 1.5 bar (21.7 psi), does on mine at least.

I'm getting confused with the Squadra...doesn't that alter the cut off?

wrinx

[AlfaJack]

Dont think so because I am sure I read it in the manual!

EDIT: Page 43 says about the 1.5 Bar limit.
http://berlinasportivo.com/Technical...ual/Q4fuel.pdf

Squadra raises the limiter to 7K though.

[juamin]

I thought the fuel cut happened at 1.5 bar (21.7 psi), does on mine at least.

hmmmmm maybe my map sensor is not working proplerly

[AlfaJack]

Possibly. You would know if its disconnected as the car would seriously over fuel?

Just before the power cuts out, how does the power feel? It should feel very rapid. Are you sure your boost gauge is ok and giving good readings?

Are you in touch with any of the other guys out there with Q4s, maybe you could get a comparison in other car??

[juamin]

Possibly. You would know if its disconnected as the car would seriously over fuel?

Just before the power cuts out, how does the power feel? It should feel very rapid. Are you sure your boost gauge is ok and giving good readings?

Are you in touch with any of the other guys out there with Q4s, maybe you could get a comparison in other car??

Hmm the car doesnt seem to overfuel, i have installed an autometer Air Fuel , it seems to read OK.
The boost meter i think is working OK because ive used another gauge and it reads the same, to get the reading i use the same hoose than the waterspray.

[Evodelta]

Are the pipes on the OBV the right way around?

[juamin]

Are the pipes on the OBV the right way around?

the pipes of the pierburg? i`ve connected them as the manual says.

[AlfaJack]

Or does he mean BOV - blow off valve/dump valve...?

[Evodelta]

the pipes of the pierburg? i`ve connected them as the manual says.

Over Boost Valve. So called because it allows the engine to overboost before dropping back a bit to a lower boost

Pierburg is (or was!) the maker, they are still making automotive parts though.

If the pipes are the wrong way round you will only get base boost which is .6bar. Base boost is often what the ECU will let the engine have if it detects something is wrong through the sensors.

Swap the pipes over, you have nothing to lose.

Failing that it could be a broken OBV.

Or something else, a fault code reader will probably release you from your misery.

[juamin]

Over Boost Valve. So called because it allows the engine to overboost before dropping back a bit to a lower boost

Pierburg is (or was!) the maker, they are still making automotive parts though.

If the pipes are the wrong way round you will only get base boost which is .6bar. Base boost is often what the ECU will let the engine have if it detects something is wrong through the sensors.

Swap the pipes over, you have nothing to lose.

Failing that it could be a broken OBV.

Or something else, a fault code reader will probably release you from your misery.

hmm ill try swap them, but i have them connected as the manual says. I also have another pierburg from another Q4, ill try swap them, and see if something changes.