cambelt troubles

Hi,

A quick word from me. Yesterday my Q was towed home.... :cry:
The engine suddenly stopped en died on me :eek:
Got the road side assistance on scene en he quicly discovered it was a cambelt problem.
The sad pictures going home the unexpected way.....
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n...08014_edit.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n...5012008015.jpg

Need to find out what the problem is and if there is any further damage to the engine. It looks like a problem with the tensioner.... So far, the counter stops at 290.8xxKM
What is really a shame.... to end this way :frown: There is a lot more to ride with this original engine, still very strong in power!

Greetings,
Marc

Sorry about that. I hope you'll manage that quickly, wish you good luck, Marc.
(Btw...you have to forgive him at least for the way he looks)

Chris.

Bad luck :(

How long since the last belt/tensioner change?

Bad news :( Hope the damage isn't too great!

(Reminds me...my belts are due too.)

wrinx

Damn.. and on a very wet day too! I hope that It works out ok.. let us know!

JimN~

Feelin sorry for you

Sorry to hear about the car Marc, fingers crossed that its nothing too serious.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AlfaJack

How long since the last belt/tensioner change?

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The belt, tensioner, water pump and everything what is needed for a cambelt change is done in jan/feb of 2007 and has lasted about 30.000km. If you look at the cambelt, it looks like new :cool:

Hopefully I find some time to lift the valve cover en start measuring the clearance of the valves, to find out if the valves hit the pistons.
If no valve(s) are bent, the car will be up and running very soon.

Otherwise i have no clue. I probably suspend the car and leave it for a couple of years to build a new, very powerfull engine and transmission revision.

Greetings,
Marc

Yesterday I took the time to remove the valve cover and do some measuring.
My first reaction was?? f*ck this head is gone, because the inlet valves of the last cylinder where fully open. I didn?t know what the position of the pistons where, butt they where all in the same position after examining. I had to push the car a bit forward and backward in fifth gear to get all the right positions of the camshaft for each cylinder.

After measuring the valve clearance I got the following results:
Inlet from left to right: 0,35 & 0,40 0,45 & 0,40 0,35 & 0,40 0,45 & 0,40
Outlet from left to right: 0,60 & 0,45 0,50 & 0,40 0,45 & 0, 45 0,45 & 0,45

This is really not a bad result and looks like no valves are bent or hit the pistons. The only thing I need to do right now is a cylinder pressure test to find out if nothing is wrong. If this result is also good, then there?s nothing in the way for another complete cambelt change and I am on the road again. So my Q4 is going to the garage in the next couple of weeks to do the last checks and probably the cambelt change.

Greetings,
Marc

I'm a little bit confused over your posts here, you haven't said what has stopped the engine? Has the cambelt broken or slipped around the pulleys?

what are the chances of valva damage with the low CR a turbo engine like this has? Low CR after all means there's more room left above the piston at TDC....

There is a little baby brother or sister coming??:eek:

:smoke:

Greetings,
Marc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Evodelta

Has the cambelt broken or slipped around the pulleys?

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The cambelt isn't broken. I think there is a problem with the tensioner, as mentioned in my openings post. The cambelt is loose and probably slipped a view positions. This is yet to be determined by my Alfa specialist. When I know what was causing the problem, i'll post it here ;)

Greetings,
Marc

Oh I see, thanks, good luck and please let us know what happened.

and best wishes to the mother :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cuore_sportivo_155

and best wishes to the mother :)

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That would be the factory where the Q4 was produced :biggrin:
Bought another Q4 from 1992 today, with only 130.000KM :cool:
Hopefully I have it at home this weekeind and shall post some pictures.

Greetings,
Marc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brul(tm)

That would be the factory where the Q4 was produced :biggrin:
Bought another Q4 from 1992 today, with only 130.000KM :cool:
Hopefully I have it at home this weekeind and shall post some pictures.

Greetings,
Marc

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How much ? Cant find any on sale these days ...

There are two on www.ebay.it at the moment.

THIS is one...bit pricey imho.

wrinx

Quote:

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Originally Posted by K.Kotkas

Cant find any on sale these days ...

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I was very lucky to find this one. Hopefully i've got the car at home.
This was a bargain ;) So i feel very very lucky :smoke:

Greetings,
Marc

Well, sad news. It's over.....

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n...r/IMG_6134.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n...r/IMG_6138.jpg

The end..... after almost 291.000KM without any revision of the engine.

:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry: :cry::cry::cry::cry:

Greetings,
a very sad Marc

Bugger :( How many miles was on this belt now? Did the tensioner seize?

What is the plan? Engine transplant from the spares Q4?

Looks like a seized tensioner which stripped the teeth on the belt?

Strange that one so new should fail :(

wrinx

Need to look in to the administration to find out the exact distance, but it is somewhere between the 20.000 and 25.000 km and approximatly 1 year old. The tensioner didn't "bite of the teeth", it's a smooth one ;)

What happend in januari this year seems the be getting a bigger mistery at this moment. The only way to find out, is to take the engine appart. Starting with removing and inspecting the cams/head and everything that has to do something with the belt. The belt looks way to tight. I am getting someone over for a second opinion about the work done on the belt and find out if it's a human failure (if possible).

Even if the engine is easy to repair I have no confidence I can really rely on this engine while letting the Q out on the roads, so I take my loss. The plans are te rebiuld a 0KM engine with balanced and forged high performance parts. This means the Q will be off the road for quit a while. I'll try to do as much as possible on my own and friends I met in the Netherlands.

The engine from the spare Q4 is not an option also, this one needs a complete rebuild too :eek: This engine hasn't ran for 9 years. In these 9 years this engine ran only a view times a year to keep everything "running". So all the seals an bearings need to be replaced, especially the belt. The whole car was ment as spare parts when the moment arrived my Q4 broke down. And I think it is the best and savest option to say my engine has had its best time.....

For the time being I am busy with a nice and special 155. When everything works out I let you guys now what kind of 155 it is, its nice special one :tongue2:

Greetings,
Marc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brul(tm)

Need to look in to the administration to find out the exact distance, but it is somewhere between the 20.000 and 25.000 km and approximatly 1 year old. The tensioner didn't "bite of the teeth", it's a smooth one ;)

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I thought the tensioner may have seized causing the belt to be stopped on that part but I guess it would just slip and get hot.

Another powerful Q4 in the (re)building then :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AlfaJack

Another powerful Q4 in the (re)building then :cool:

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That is the plan :cool: I sorted out a lot of the components I think I need or will be using. Only thing I haven't figured out are the rods.

In the meanwhile I am buying a 155 3.1 12V tuned bij Savali :smoke:

Greetings,
Marc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brul(tm)

In the meanwhile I am buying a 155 3.1 12V tuned bij Savali :smoke:

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:cool::cool::cool:...pictures???

wrinx

Well, for the pictures from the Savali it's a bit late :eek:
I haven't had this car that long before the engine started to die :tapedshut: SO the Savali ended on the scrab yard :cry:

But there is also some "good" news :rolleyes:
Today I took some time to do some work on the Q4 after a very long time. I removed the belt and wasn't that happy with what I saw :eek:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n...r/IMG_7394.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n...r/IMG_7393.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n...r/IMG_7398.jpg

I don't know what caused this kind of belt damage, but I get a feeling it has something to do something with a belt that was way to tight :eek: Looks like the teeth are slowly cut of the belt :eek:

Greetings,
Marc

Excellent pictures, very rare to see these posted up and interesting they are too. This kind of failure is caused by the belt being too slack or 'foreign objects' getting in there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Evodelta

This kind of failure is caused by the belt being too slack or 'foreign objects' getting in there.

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What do you mean by too slack :confused: :O
Foreign objects are out of the question I think....
The belt cover is in place and I didn't find any strange objects below the crank at the bottom.

Only thing I am sure about, is that the belt tension was way to much :eek: I put the belt back in place and can't hardly twist/move the belt on the long side (the pulling side) of the cam belt.

Based on the pictures it has been confirmed that the belt tension probably was the cause of this failure :cry:

Greetings,
Marc

If you knew the answer then why ask?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Evodelta

If you knew the answer then why ask?

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I don't have the anwser. I try to explain what I see.
This way I hope to find the anwser or explenation for the cause of the problem presented to me.

The information of a to tight belt, came from a car technician who participates on a dutch forum.

Greetings,
Marc

Well I dunno, you wrote: "Only thing I am sure about, is that the belt tension was way to much"

I can't understand how you managed to get the belt off and back on again without disturbing the tensioner?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Evodelta

I can't understand how you managed to get the belt off and back on again without disturbing the tensioner?

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Well, I can explain this. What I did was, when I saw the teeth were missing from the belt.... I role the car forward and backwards so the belt would pick up where there are still teeht on the belt. Maybe this is very stupid or not... I don't know.
Anyhow, this way I managed to get te belt back on without loosening the tensioner. This way I felt that the tension of the belt was wrong (a feeling/I figured).

Greetings,
Marc

I had a Gates diagnosis poster in my workshop, but this Dayco one will do the job I guess:

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m...softension.jpg

Diagnostic of belt control systems

Detached teeth


POSSIBLE CAUSES:

Tension too low


Loss of tension


Foreign matters
CORRECTIVE ACTIONS

Replace the belt


Check the components integrity


Tension the belt correctly


Check the tensioner fastening


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back | Details (C) Dayco Europe S.r.l.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Evodelta

I had a Gates diagnosis poster in my workshop, but this Dayco one will do the job I guess:

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m...softension.jpg

Diagnostic of belt control systems

Detached teeth


POSSIBLE CAUSES:

Tension too low


Loss of tension


Foreign matters
CORRECTIVE ACTIONS

Replace the belt


Check the components integrity


Tension the belt correctly


Check the tensioner fastening


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back | Details (C) Dayco Europe S.r.l.

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Thank you for your reply ! I realy appreciate this!
It is very difficult to take a picture from the belt and the way the teeth came lose from the belt. The camera focusses on the wrong points :( But if I must describe the belt, it looks like the teeth are cut off or cut lose from the belt :confused: And it does this on parts of the belt, not the whole belt.

Greetings,
Marc

And some more:

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m...gine/04_07.jpg

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m...gine/04_06.jpg

All under the heading of 'Possible loss of tension'.

You have to reverse the engine or pull on certain pulleys to check the tension on the longest run, pushing the car when in gear will apply maximum pressure to the long run and make it tight no matter what the overall tension is.

@ Mark

well, I can not comment any of the reasons but my cambelt was exactly like this when I bought the car from the police. 8 valves were bended and ...
Sense then an idea-question is fixed in my head.
Why do the engineers removed the good old chain and started to use these rubber sh@@@ts belts for 'timing'???
Just for the noise - if you want it you can call it 'comfort of ride', but it's the same thing. Or is it just to move to the high sky the cost of a 'regular' service and sell more spare parts? Keep factories going on at common peoples expenses? Have all the 'car industry' going on? ...
Not the place, nor the time to continue with this '...'!

There is a guy who converted the timing belt on a BL Mini 1275 into a proper chain timing set up and I just admire him. Wish I had the time to deal with something similar!!! My Bertone keeps going for more than 10 years with its good old timing chain and revs always up to + 7300 - 7400 rpm without any 'chain problem' at all.

Any way, you have plenty to do and if you ever reach to a conclusion for the causes and how to avoid them, please let us know.

Nick

ps.
Did you ever considered that the timing belt itself was 'aged' when you {or whom else} mount it on the car? You do know, I believe, that 'rubber' things in general lose their flexibility over the years and if the 'anti aging' additive used in their mixture is not the proper one then the 'aging' process {rubber diverts to non flexible 'plastic'} is much more fast! It's the same process with the 'new technology' tires that after 3-4 years, even if they are not used, lose their grip. Tires have the date of production stamped on them {on the sidewalls} for that reason, cambelts DOES NOT! Why?

I don't think cambelts are made from real rubber Nick, more likely a synthetic equivalent. The cord you can see which holds them together is Nylon or a para-aramid synthetic fibre (Kevlar to you and I!)

same shit happended to my belt ealier this year. Crappy narrow belt crap........

whatever they are made off, I definitively don't like them at all. And the bushes for the suspension as well.

I vote for chains, even if I'm the only one.

Nick