Boost and waterspray issues

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Originally Posted by WhizzMan

Are you saying that a static boost for all RPMs is better than one that can give you the max boost your engine can handle depending on the RPM? To be safe, you have to set this static controller to the lowest boost (not the maximum as you suggest) allowed by the ECU at any RPM. This way you can't benefit from higher boost at other RPMs and that way you will lose power at those RPMs. This is why they put all the complicated pierburg valve equipment on in stead of a simple valve.

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If a chip is mapped for say 1.2 bar then set the valve to 1.2, as long as you don't exceed that you will be ok.
I'm no armchair mechanic who just plucks things from the internet or a manual, I do actually test this stuff out before posting up. I've been running these valves for years with no problems at all, they only get bad press because people get carried away and exceed the max boost that their chip is mapped to and the engine goes bang.

Things have come a long way in the last 20 yrs when the Pierburg valve was first fitted to these engines, a long long way. Cars made in the factory were sent all over the world and so were set to safe limits for use in high altitude areas with poor fuel, I don't live in such an area or such a time so can run my car accordingly.
The P valve tails off the boost because of this and to give the engine and turbo extended life on normal road car, but as we are discussing tuning engines for power here you can throw that analogy out of the window, the second you go for more power then you are reducing the life of the engine and it's components, I thought this was obvious so didn't mention it in my initial post....

The P valve dribbles out the boost signal to the wastegate which in turn causes wastegate creep, a soggy response and reduced max boost at high rpm, fit a boost controller and kiss this goodbye.
Electronic boost controllers are for the max power generation who like to see flashing lights and lots of knobs to twiddle on the dash, I grew out of that years ago, for me the massive additional cost doesn't compare with any benefits it might give. As long as it's got a stop at the upper limit I can regulate the boost with my right foot.

It has to be said though that most of you guys here will be still running the standard weedy turbo and it is a bit delicate, especially when overspun. I traded up to the standard integrale 16v turbo some while back, it's a lot stronger, gives much more power and even then it's small compared to what some people are fitting now.

Thanks, your thoughts mirror mine, I don't like the way the boost trails off and it doesn't happen on my JTD....although Pavs reported a much improved car when he replaced the old PV.

My car is only boosting to 1.1 max, but without the PV connected it easily reached 1.4 where I lifted off!

Its fitted with a Squadra so should easily reach this...and perhaps more???

wrinx

What is the max boost the Squadra chip will give?

I don't mean the turbo, I mean the chip, what is it programmed to give?

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Originally Posted by Evodelta

Electronic boost controllers are for the max power generation who like to see flashing lights and lots of knobs to twiddle on the dash, I grew out of that years ago

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Oh bugger, I must be one of these :redface: :redface:
I can see your point but I thought they served more of a purpose by gauging the amount of boost against the RPM but after reading your post I am not oo worried by it.

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Originally Posted by Evodelta

I traded up to the standard integrale 16v turbo some while back, it's a lot stronger, gives much more power and even then it's small compared to what some people are fitting now.

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I thought the 16v grale and the Q4 had the same unit. Are they both Garrett T3s?

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Originally Posted by cuore_sportivo_155

not likely... metal is atrracted by either the north or south pole of a magnet... when trying to attract another magnet, polarity matters...

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Okay, then explain to me how an audio-speaker works? Or, even more to the point, how a monorail "maglev" train stays in the air? MAGnetic LEVitation, is what that stands for, it gets pushed away from the magnet in stead of being attracted to it. The same happens to the pin in the solenoid. If you don't believe me, blow through the pierburg valve hose, reverse polarity and see if it still opens.

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Originally Posted by Evodelta

If a chip is mapped for say 1.2 bar then set the valve to 1.2, as long as you don't exceed that you will be ok.

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This is where your logic flaws, the chips doesn't set it at a static maximum boost, but varies the maximum boost according to the RPM the engine is running at at that specific moment. There's a map for that. You can't run 1.4 at 1100 RPM but you can at 3000. If you set the static boost valve at 1.4 you will get massive knock at 1100 RPM and the ECU will retard spark or even stop fuel-injection to save your engine. This will cost you power at 1100 rpm and it won't gain you anything at 3000, so the net effect will be negative.

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Things have come a long way in the last 20 yrs when the Pierburg valve was first fitted to these engines, a long long way. Cars made in the factory were sent all over the world and so were set to safe limits for use in high altitude areas with poor fuel, I don't live in such an area or such a time so can run my car accordingly.
The P valve tails off the boost because of this and to give the engine and turbo extended life on normal road car, but as we are discussing tuning engines for power here you can throw that analogy out of the window, the second you go for more power then you are reducing the life of the engine and it's components, I thought this was obvious so didn't mention it in my initial post....

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Using tuning chips does exactly the same, but it uses a dynamic map for boost so you can get even more power out of your engine at certain RPMs without blowing it up at others.

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The P valve dribbles out the boost signal to the wastegate which in turn causes wastegate creep, a soggy response and reduced max boost at high rpm,

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This reduced max boost is programmed into the chip, you can program the pierburg any way you want it, creep and soggy responses are a result of inadequate tuning. The pierburg has several duty-cycle settings, the max of 100% which means full open is available too, so there is no reason you can't set it full open at certain RPMs with boost under the max allowed.

Evodelta do you have tb0385

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Originally Posted by Stuntz

Evodelta do you have tb0385

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Yes I do, here is the full list:



HF turbo: TB0333
Garrett partnr: 466194-0001

HF 4WD: TB0338
Garrett partnr: 466384-0002

INTEGRALE 8v: TBO338
Garrett partnr: 466384-0006

INTEGRALE 16v and EVO I: TB0385
Garrett partnr: 465553-0001


EVO II: TB0367
Garrett partnr: 465103-0006



I think that the Evo II has the same turbo and ECU as the Q4 and Fiat Coupe, yes?

Yes Jack, they are all T3s, this only really relates to the style of the exhaust mounting flange, there are many different sizes within the range, the bigger 16v T3 is a direct swap for the earlier smaller one.

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Originally Posted by WhizzMan

This is where your logic flaws, the chips doesn't set it at a static maximum boost, but varies the maximum boost according to the RPM the engine is running at at that specific moment. There's a map for that. You can't run 1.4 at 1100 RPM but you can at 3000. If you set the static boost valve at 1.4 you will get massive knock at 1100 RPM and the ECU will retard spark or even stop fuel-injection to save your engine. This will cost you power at 1100 rpm and it won't gain you anything at 3000, so the net effect will be negative.


Using tuning chips does exactly the same, but it uses a dynamic map for boost so you can get even more power out of your engine at certain RPMs without blowing it up at others.

This reduced max boost is programmed into the chip, you can program the pierburg any way you want it, creep and soggy responses are a result of inadequate tuning. The pierburg has several duty-cycle settings, the max of 100% which means full open is available too, so there is no reason you can't set it full open at certain RPMs with boost under the max allowed.

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Im a little bit confused .
My pierburg definitively is not working . My boost is 9/10 psi at 3500rpm +/- . Now, if i install the manual boost controller and set it so the maximum PSI is 14.5 psi (1 bar). There shouldnt be any problem with that, thats right? . Obviously I cant boost 15 psi at 1500rpm because it will blow up to hell jeje. But if i mantanin the RPM VS Boost , it can be done? .
Suposing that i do this, i install the manual boost control and i set it up to 14.5 psi, the ecu will automatically set the fuel, timing ,etc based on the map, lambda and other sensor readings? . To finish, if i exceed for example, 16 psi, the ignition will cut ?


thank youuu =)

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Originally Posted by WhizzMan

This is where your logic flaws, the chips doesn't set it at a static maximum boost, but varies the maximum boost according to the RPM the engine is running at at that specific moment. There's a map for that. You can't run 1.4 at 1100 RPM but you can at 3000. If you set the static boost valve at 1.4 you will get massive knock at 1100 RPM and the ECU will retard spark or even stop fuel-injection to save your engine. This will cost you power at 1100 rpm and it won't gain you anything at 3000, so the net effect will be negative..

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Sorry, but that's rubbish, the chip is mapped to run 1.4 from around 2500 - 3000rpm to the redline, how is a boost controller making it do anything more harmful than this? Answer this please:

What precisely is going to cause 'massive knock' at 1100rpm?

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Originally Posted by WhizzMan

Using tuning chips does exactly the same, but it uses a dynamic map for boost so you can get even more power out of your engine at certain RPMs without blowing it up at others.

This reduced max boost is programmed into the chip, you can program the pierburg any way you want it, creep and soggy responses are a result of inadequate tuning. The pierburg has several duty-cycle settings, the max of 100% which means full open is available too, so there is no reason you can't set it full open at certain RPMs with boost under the max allowed.

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You are talking about remapping the car to gain different characteristics at what cost? ?500? I'm talking about a boost controller that will liven up your drive to work for ?25, that isn't comparing like for like.

It's true that a full remap is the way to go to take advantage of any engine mods, but how many of the guys in this thread are going to go to those lengths?

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Originally Posted by Evodelta

Sorry, but that's rubbish, the chip is mapped to run 1.4 from around 2500 - 3000rpm to the redline, how is a boost controller making it do anything more harmful than this? Answer this please:

What precisely is going to cause 'massive knock' at 1100rpm?

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Because the boost controller wil also allow 1.4 at 1100 rpm and that's way too much for that RPM. This will cause the massive knock if your ECU won't intervene by retarding spark and cutting fuel if that won't help. Low RPM, high spark advance combined with much higher boost than optimal for that RPM will cause knock.

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You are talking about remapping the car to gain different characteristics at what cost? ?500? I'm talking about a boost controller that will liven up your drive to work for ?25, that isn't comparing like for like.

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Of course it isn't comparable, but that doesn't mean your solution is superior, only cheaper. You can get a remap for under UKP 100 by buying one of the "one size fits all" chips, or by burning one yourself from free downloadable examples. If you want to spend a bit more you can buy a squadra tuning chip for E340. A rolling road tuning of your car will cost more, your UKP 500 estimate would most likely be quite accurate. This won't be much use unless you do significant modifications like bolting on a bigger intercooler, change your turbo for another model, change your camshafts etc. etc. If you do such modifications, you would gain from a rolling road tailor-made setup, if you want more grunt from the standard kit, a (squadra)chip is in my opinion superior to bolting on a static boost valve and hardly more expensive.

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It's true that a full remap is the way to go to take advantage of any engine mods, but how many of the guys in this thread are going to go to those lengths?

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Just changing the very conservative mapping from the factory to a proven working faster one, like Squadra or other chips, will get you much more fun out of your stock setup. I'm sure that someone would be willing to make some chips of the publicly available modified images for beer-money and shipping costs, so that shouldn't be prohibitive. Jim Nielsen is already poking around in the maps to change several parameters so we have at least one member that is making his own chips.

Several people in this thread are already looking at changing cams, swapping turbos etc. so they would benefit from a rolling-road session for tailor made stuff.

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Originally Posted by WhizzMan

Several people in this thread are already looking at changing cams, swapping turbos etc. so they would benefit from a rolling-road session for tailor made stuff.

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:eek:...when I begin to understand what's going on :biggrin:

wrinx

jim nielsen is using a chip made by my friend and can you eplain to me How the hell will the turbo spool up at 1100 RPM????? We are not useing bang sytems.Even whit WG fully closed i get boost at 2k rpm and further and yes i will have chip reprogramed for my manual set up boost . I used that model that i can set it from the cabin

At Evodelta mine is like this http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MANUAL-BOOST-C...ayphotohosting

I truly have no experience whit it always done by duty cycle is it ok? And i dont want to be rude or enything but whizmann where do you take your knowledge? I took mine form rally car preparation and from my friends.........

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Originally Posted by WhizzMan

Because the boost controller wil also allow 1.4 at 1100 rpm and that's way too much for that RPM. This will cause the massive knock if your ECU won't intervene by retarding spark and cutting fuel if that won't help. Low RPM, high spark advance combined with much higher boost than optimal for that RPM will cause knock.

Of course it isn't comparable, but that doesn't mean your solution is superior, only cheaper. You can get a remap for under UKP 100 by buying one of the "one size fits all" chips, or by burning one yourself from free downloadable examples. If you want to spend a bit more you can buy a squadra tuning chip for E340. A rolling road tuning of your car will cost more, your UKP 500 estimate would most likely be quite accurate. This won't be much use unless you do significant modifications like bolting on a bigger intercooler, change your turbo for another model, change your camshafts etc. etc. If you do such modifications, you would gain from a rolling road tailor-made setup, if you want more grunt from the standard kit, a (squadra)chip is in my opinion superior to bolting on a static boost valve and hardly more expensive.



Just changing the very conservative mapping from the factory to a proven working faster one, like Squadra or other chips, will get you much more fun out of your stock setup. I'm sure that someone would be willing to make some chips of the publicly available modified images for beer-money and shipping costs, so that shouldn't be prohibitive. Jim Nielsen is already poking around in the maps to change several parameters so we have at least one member that is making his own chips.

Several people in this thread are already looking at changing cams, swapping turbos etc. so they would benefit from a rolling-road session for tailor made stuff.

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:funnypost:


So you think that by fitting a boost controller you can get 1.4 bar at just over tickover? :doh:

A chip swap isn't a remap.

I never even implied a manual boost controller is better than a remap, it doesn't even pretend to do the same thing.

I don't think I need to say anymore

The 1100 RPM was an example. You could get pressures like this at 1100 when shifting gears, but only momentarily since the turbo will spool down indeed. My point is, even between 2000 and 6000 rpm the engine works better with the correct max-boost value for that RPM. Swapping chips without changing the maps wouldn't make sense, so yes, it's a remap. Maybe not all values are (drastically) changed, but the whole exercise is done to change maps. You could of course remap the chip to take the manual boost controller into account. But it remains my opinion you will have more overall power (you can of course tune a boost-valve for peak power, so that won't be more with pierburg) and a less "jumpy" powercurve if you use a pierburg controlled by the ECU, than with a static boost-valve.

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Originally Posted by juamin

Im a little bit confused .
My pierburg definitively is not working . My boost is 9/10 psi at 3500rpm +/- . Now, if i install the manual boost controller and set it so the maximum PSI is 14.5 psi (1 bar). There shouldnt be any problem with that, thats right? . Obviously I cant boost 15 psi at 2000rpm because it will blow up to hell jeje. But if i mantanin the RPM VS Boost , it can be done? .
Suposing that i do this, i install the manual boost control and i set it up to 14.5 psi, the ecu will automatically set the fuel, timing ,etc based on the map, lambda and other sensor readings? . To finish, if i exceed for example, 16 psi, the ignition will cut ?


thank youuu =)

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buuu nowbody answered me =(

Stuntz is correct in that I am using a set of software that he provided to me. The great thing about it is that its based on 101.04 sw that there is an XDF file for that works with Tuner Pro RT 4.14. So with just a few basic tools you can have a lot of effect. As well, because I'm only really interested in ensuring that I have the maximum possible boost at wide open throttle (without blowing the thing up..) its very easy to make modifications to that specific line of the table that controls the pierburg valve duty cycle. As well, because I have both the basic 101.4 software and the software that Stuntz provided me with, I have created baseline data that shows the relationship between the two at wide open throttle, comparing boost and AFR ratios (using a datalogger). So now its easy for me to modify the software in anyway that I need for my own purposes. And that purpose is simple, because its just a race car, I want the thing to build boost as fast as possible at wide open throttle and to hold it there at (say) 1.3 bar till I have to throttle off for the next corner.

jim.

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Originally Posted by juamin

buuu nowbody answered me =(

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Early on in the thread you were advised to disconnect the valve and see if your car will hold boost, have you done it yet?

The reasons for lack of boost could fill a five page essay, start with the basic eliminations first!

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Originally Posted by WhizzMan

The 1100 RPM was an example. You could get pressures like this at 1100 when shifting gears, but only momentarily since the turbo will spool down indeed .

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No it won't. You won't see any boost at 1100rpm no matter what you do (unless we are talking about ant-lag etc). In order to get 1100 whilst on the move you would have to change from a low gear into fifth at about 30mph, go out and try it and then report back.

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Originally Posted by WhizzMan

My point is, even between 2000 and 6000 rpm the engine works better with the correct max-boost value for that RPM..

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Not really, if a chip is programmed to give correct fuel at 6000rpm on overboost, then you can get it to hold at the same rpm with a manual boost valve and it will still fuel the car correctly, why would it do any thing else? Overboost on chips are designed just like the factory ones, they peak at a certain pressure and then back off. It's the same story at 3, 4 and 5000rpm, the chip is programmed to fuel correctly at this engine speed, it just won't hold it because it tells the OBV to back off.

Don't dismiss it until you've tried it, then you have grounds for arguement, until then you don't, it's just armchair theory.

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Originally Posted by WhizzMan

Swapping chips without changing the maps wouldn't make sense, so yes, it's a remap. Maybe not all values are (drastically) changed, but the whole exercise is done to change maps. You could of course remap the chip to take the manual boost controller into account. But it remains my opinion you will have more overall power (you can of course tune a boost-valve for peak power, so that won't be more with pierburg) and a less "jumpy" powercurve if you use a pierburg controlled by the ECU, than with a static boost-valve.

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A remap is where you take a car and map it live on the rollers or on the road, it is unique to that car and no other, a chip change will never have the precise characteristics for that particular car, every engine is different, especially now over ten years since it was built.

Now tell me this power curve below is 'jumpy', it's of my car with an Evocars chip and a manual boost controller, the fuelling was checked and worked well. Ignore the max figures they are irrelevant, look at the curves, they are exactly what you want from a car, early turbo spool up, power curve climbs steep and straight and doesn't dip, torque comes in as early as you can get it and remains relatively nice and flat throughout the rev range, it barely dips off at the end.

You won't get a graph like that with a standard chip swap and the Pierburg valve fitted........

Looks good...what are you running to get 276bhp?

Getting very tempted to try one of these boost controllers as I don't like how the boost trails off.

Any recommendations? Would be nice to have an in-car adjustment...

wrinx

I agree with Whizzman that ............


You won't get a graph like that with a standard chip swap and the Pierburg valve fitted........

but its also possible to do if using the pierburg valve and using software uploaded to an emulator so that you can configure both the duty cycle of the pierburg and the injectors with revs.

Jimn~

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Originally Posted by Evodelta

Early on in the thread you were advised to disconnect the valve and see if your car will hold boost, have you done it yet?

The reasons for lack of boost could fill a five page essay, start with the basic eliminations first!

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yes i have done that very carefully and it boosted a lot, i couldn't get the boost meter very well but it was about 17 / 18 psi when the car cut ignition or fuel.

Sounds reasonable for a standard chip 1.1/1.2bar.

wrinx

I thought the fuel cut happened at 1.5 bar (21.7 psi), does on mine at least.

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Originally Posted by AlfaJack

I thought the fuel cut happened at 1.5 bar (21.7 psi), does on mine at least.

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I had the same experience.

Greetings,
Marc

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Originally Posted by AlfaJack

I thought the fuel cut happened at 1.5 bar (21.7 psi), does on mine at least.

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I'm getting confused with the Squadra...doesn't that alter the cut off?

wrinx

Dont think so because I am sure I read it in the manual!

EDIT: Page 43 says about the 1.5 Bar limit.
http://berlinasportivo.com/Technical...ual/Q4fuel.pdf

Squadra raises the limiter to 7K though.

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Originally Posted by AlfaJack

I thought the fuel cut happened at 1.5 bar (21.7 psi), does on mine at least.

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hmmmmm maybe my map sensor is not working proplerly :confused:

Possibly. You would know if its disconnected as the car would seriously over fuel?

Just before the power cuts out, how does the power feel? It should feel very rapid. Are you sure your boost gauge is ok and giving good readings?

Are you in touch with any of the other guys out there with Q4s, maybe you could get a comparison in other car??

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Originally Posted by AlfaJack

Possibly. You would know if its disconnected as the car would seriously over fuel?

Just before the power cuts out, how does the power feel? It should feel very rapid. Are you sure your boost gauge is ok and giving good readings?

Are you in touch with any of the other guys out there with Q4s, maybe you could get a comparison in other car??

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Hmm the car doesnt seem to overfuel, i have installed an autometer Air Fuel , it seems to read OK.
The boost meter i think is working OK because ive used another gauge and it reads the same, to get the reading i use the same hoose than the waterspray.

Are the pipes on the OBV the right way around?

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Originally Posted by Evodelta

Are the pipes on the OBV the right way around?

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the pipes of the pierburg? i`ve connected them as the manual says.

Or does he mean BOV - blow off valve/dump valve...?

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Originally Posted by juamin

the pipes of the pierburg? i`ve connected them as the manual says.

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Over Boost Valve. So called because it allows the engine to overboost before dropping back a bit to a lower boost :smile:

Pierburg is (or was!) the maker, they are still making automotive parts though.

If the pipes are the wrong way round you will only get base boost which is .6bar. Base boost is often what the ECU will let the engine have if it detects something is wrong through the sensors.

Swap the pipes over, you have nothing to lose.

Failing that it could be a broken OBV.

Or something else, a fault code reader will probably release you from your misery.

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Originally Posted by Evodelta

Over Boost Valve. So called because it allows the engine to overboost before dropping back a bit to a lower boost :smile:

Pierburg is (or was!) the maker, they are still making automotive parts though.

If the pipes are the wrong way round you will only get base boost which is .6bar. Base boost is often what the ECU will let the engine have if it detects something is wrong through the sensors.

Swap the pipes over, you have nothing to lose.

Failing that it could be a broken OBV.

Or something else, a fault code reader will probably release you from your misery.

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hmm ill try swap them, but i have them connected as the manual says. I also have another pierburg from another Q4, ill try swap them, and see if something changes.

1.5 bar is the limit as Q4 uses a 250kPa MAP (100kPa for vacuum and 150kPa for boost, 100kPa=1bar=14.7psi)

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Originally Posted by juamin

Im a little bit confused .
My pierburg definitively is not working . My boost is 9/10 psi at 3500rpm +/- . Now, if i install the manual boost controller and set it so the maximum PSI is 14.5 psi (1 bar). There shouldnt be any problem with that, thats right? . Obviously I cant boost 15 psi at 2000rpm because it will blow up to hell jeje. But if i mantanin the RPM VS Boost , it can be done? .
Suposing that i do this, i install the manual boost control and i set it up to 14.5 psi, the ecu will automatically set the fuel, timing ,etc based on the map, lambda and other sensor readings? . To finish, if i exceed for example, 16 psi, the ignition will cut ?

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ECU will set timing and fuel based on MAP reading, that?s why it?ll cut off over 1.5bar, as no info of boost would be given.

OEM boost is set to a peak of 1.1bar and then goes down to 0.8bar

Thanks for clarifying, quite a margin of safety then.

wrinx

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Originally Posted by juamin

hmm ill try swap them, but i have them connected as the manual says. I also have another pierburg from another Q4, ill try swap them, and see if something changes.

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Did you ever sort this out?

wrinx

yes, but after solving that, my cambeld decided to cut jeje :doh:
16 new valves , pistons, etc =( (new engine).

The problem was that the intake manifold was loose and that produced loss of boost and strange behaviour. The rest was Ok. the pierburg worked fine.

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Originally Posted by juamin

yes, but after solving that, my cambeld decided to cut jeje :doh:
16 new valves , pistons, etc =( (new engine).

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Noooooooooooooooooo :doh::cry::eek:

wrinx