removing EGR valve-system. Advantages and disadvantages

[arjunior45]

yesterday I removed the EGR system {valve and tubes}.

Advantages :
a} never again a broken {burned} collar that is no longer available from bl... FIAT!!!
b} ???

Disadvantages :
a} ???


Nick

[Brul(tm)]

Disadvantages :
a} ???

This list going to be empty :tongue2:
It was removed when I bought the, even before I had driven in it :cool:
It's gone since 2002 :rolleyes:

Greetings,
Marc

[arjunior45]

I did not noticed any disadvantages too.

Nick.

[jimnielsen]

IS this difficult to do with the engine still in the car? What about a step by step list of what has to be removed and some pictures?? - i'd like to do this as well...

Jimn~

[wrinx]

:
a} never again a broken {burned} collar that is no longer available from bl... FIAT!!!


Not sure wht you mean by this....collar?

I removed the EGR valve rubbish a few months ago....can't tell the difference :doh:

Dead easy to do, just need to unbolt the piping and blank off the holes in the manifold and head.

Manifold...think I used an old swinging arm bearing bolt thread with the nut to tighten it up!

wrinx

[arjunior45]

Not sure wht you mean by this....collar?


for 'collar' I mean the bottom tube that goes from the water expansion tank to the engine, passing under the EGR pipe.

[arjunior45]

IS this difficult to do with the engine still in the car? What about a step by step list of what has to be removed and some pictures?? - i'd like to do this as well...

Jimn~

the procedure is the one described above by wrinx.
I'll post some picture asap.

Nick

[#84]

I suppose it is up to me to be boring and negative. I can see three negative aspects:

1. Higher NOx emissions
2. The EGR basicly reduces the oxygen level of the intake air which mean you have to open the throttle more to get the same amount of oxygen into the engine. With the throttle more open there is less restriction to the air feed which means reduced pump losses and increased efficiency, i.e. lower fuel consumption.
3. The EGR system is a passive system, i.e.there is no impulse from the ECU telling it what to do. Moreover, the engine does not know wheter it is activated or not. However for a given pressure balance over the engine the EGR should always be in the same mode. So, when the engine is mapped the EGR is indirectly taken into account. If the EGR is disconnected the oxygen content will be increased (higher lambda value) and the lambda sensor will detect that the mixture is too lean so the mixture will be enriched by the ECU. Since the ECU got a permanent mixture compensator, a memory, the mixture will be permanentely compensated after a while. But in reality the mixture awas only too lean when the EGR should have been activated (if it was connected) but the mixture is now corrected for all loadpoints and since the ECU only use lambda correction at low speed / low load then the engine will run too rich in all non lambda corrected load points since the mixtue cmpensator have told the engine that it run too lean.

Anyway, the effect I describe is not very strong so you won't destroy the engine.

/A

[RMB-Racing]

I suppose it is up to me to be boring and negative. I can see three negative aspects:

1. Higher NOx emissions
2. The EGR basicly reduces the oxygen level of the intake air which mean you have to open the throttle more to get the same amount of oxygen into the engine. With the throttle more open there is less restriction to the air feed which means reduced pump losses and increased efficiency, i.e. lower fuel consumption.
3. The EGR system is a passive system, i.e.there is no impulse from the ECU telling it what to do. Moreover, the engine does not know wheter it is activated or not. However for a given pressure balance over the engine the EGR should always be in the same mode. So, when the engine is mapped the EGR is indirectly taken into account. If the EGR is disconnected the oxygen content will be increased (higher lambda value) and the lambda sensor will detect that the mixture is too lean so the mixture will be enriched by the ECU. Since the ECU got a permanent mixture compensator, a memory, the mixture will be permanentely compensated after a while. But in reality the mixture awas only too lean when the EGR should have been activated (if it was connected) but the mixture is now corrected for all loadpoints and since the ECU only use lambda correction at low speed / low load then the engine will run too rich in all non lambda corrected load points since the mixtue cmpensator have told the engine that it run too lean.

Anyway, the effect I describe is not very strong so you won't destroy the engine.

/A

Well - as long as the removal of the EGR doesn't have a negative influence on the engine performance and the engine it self- well who gives a flying f... ? :biggrin:

There isn't any of us in here, who hasn't done just a little bit of changes on the engines performance - so I personally don't think that the environment is our top priority?!

If thats was the case - Ill would be driving a Lupo!

And as for the problem you describe here:

3. The EGR system is a passive system, i.e.there is no impulse from the ECU telling it what to do. Moreover, the engine does not know wheter it is activated or not. However for a given pressure balance over the engine the EGR should always be in the same mode. So, when the engine is mapped the EGR is indirectly taken into account. If the EGR is disconnected the oxygen content will be increased (higher lambda value) and the lambda sensor will detect that the mixture is too lean so the mixture will be enriched by the ECU. Since the ECU got a permanent mixture compensator, a memory, the mixture will be permanentely compensated after a while. But in reality the mixture awas only too lean when the EGR should have been activated (if it was connected) but the mixture is now corrected for all loadpoints and since the ECU only use lambda correction at low speed / low load then the engine will run too rich in all non lambda corrected load points since the mixtue cmpensator have told the engine that it run too lean.

-is in my book just a qustion of a propper remapping?!

[RMB-Racing]

I suppose it is up to me to be boring and negative. I can see three negative aspects:

1. Higher NOx emissions
2. The EGR basicly reduces the oxygen level of the intake air which mean you have to open the throttle more to get the same amount of oxygen into the engine. With the throttle more open there is less restriction to the air feed which means reduced pump losses and increased efficiency, i.e. lower fuel consumption.
3. The EGR system is a passive system, i.e.there is no impulse from the ECU telling it what to do. Moreover, the engine does not know wheter it is activated or not. However for a given pressure balance over the engine the EGR should always be in the same mode. So, when the engine is mapped the EGR is indirectly taken into account. If the EGR is disconnected the oxygen content will be increased (higher lambda value) and the lambda sensor will detect that the mixture is too lean so the mixture will be enriched by the ECU. Since the ECU got a permanent mixture compensator, a memory, the mixture will be permanentely compensated after a while. But in reality the mixture awas only too lean when the EGR should have been activated (if it was connected) but the mixture is now corrected for all loadpoints and since the ECU only use lambda correction at low speed / low load then the engine will run too rich in all non lambda corrected load points since the mixtue cmpensator have told the engine that it run too lean.

Anyway, the effect I describe is not very strong so you won't destroy the engine.

/A

Well - as long as the removal of the EGR doesn't have a negative influence on the engine performance and the engine it self- well who gives a flying f... ? :biggrin:

There isn't any of us in here, who hasn't done just a little bit of changes on the engines performance - so I personally don't think that the environment is our top priority?!

If thats was the case - Ill would be driving a Lupo!

And as for the problem you describe here:

3. The EGR system is a passive system, i.e.there is no impulse from the ECU telling it what to do. Moreover, the engine does not know wheter it is activated or not. However for a given pressure balance over the engine the EGR should always be in the same mode. So, when the engine is mapped the EGR is indirectly taken into account. If the EGR is disconnected the oxygen content will be increased (higher lambda value) and the lambda sensor will detect that the mixture is too lean so the mixture will be enriched by the ECU. Since the ECU got a permanent mixture compensator, a memory, the mixture will be permanentely compensated after a while. But in reality the mixture awas only too lean when the EGR should have been activated (if it was connected) but the mixture is now corrected for all loadpoints and since the ECU only use lambda correction at low speed / low load then the engine will run too rich in all non lambda corrected load points since the mixtue cmpensator have told the engine that it run too lean.


-is in my book just a qustion of a propper remapping?!

[arjunior45]

I suppose it is up to me to be boring and negative. I can see three negative aspects:

/A

Andreas,
I believe that giving the 'negative' aspects of a mod is not 'boring and negative' behavior! It is knowledge.

I removed the EGR system in order to change the broken tube under the system's metallic pipe and did not refitted it again just to see what happens.

I'll check emissions soon and compare them to the previous one {a week earlier}.
According to the AR manual, we can correct high NOx emissions by acting to the CO trimer. So still there is plenty to do. Need to mount also the wb O2 sensor to monitor the fueling.

But I do not understand something you mention.
With less exhaust gas {CO, CO2, NOx ...} in the inlet manifold, by removing the EGR system, in a certain throttle position you get more {and not less as you mention} Oxygen into the engine. The intake mixture has more Oxygen as %. So, you need to close the throttle {not to open} to take the same amount of oxygen into the engine.
Keeping the throttle steady, with EGR system removed and more 'pure' oxygen into the inlet manifold, the ECU will cut fuel {won't give more fuel} in order to maintain the gas emissions in a certain level, taking in consideration the lambda sensor.
In the non lambda corrected area, according to what you say, the fueling will be equally less and the engine will be 'underfueled' - won't overfuel!
To tell you the truth, after removing the EGR system, I increased the fuel pressure up to 2,9 to compensate the 'less' fuel injected by the ecu.
But I need to 'play' with the engine a little bit more and have more data before I come to a conclusion and start remapping the ecu.

Nick

[arjunior45]

IS this difficult to do with the engine still in the car? What about a step by step list of what has to be removed and some pictures?? - i'd like to do this as well...

Jimn~

the pictures you've asked :
In the white circles the holes you need to close.

[jimnielsen]

Thanks for the Photos! I'll get this mod done myself now..

jimn~

[arjunior45]

Thanks for the Photos! I'll get this mod done myself now..

jimn~

good luck. Pay attention to the bolds on the inlet manifold. I had a problem there with the bolds.

Nick

[Steve Webb]

the pictures you've asked :
In the white circles the holes you need to close.


Mine got removed when I swapped over to a supersprint exhaust manifold.

Just a couple of Q's though, what did you use to blank off the inlet hole? Copper?

And for some reason I thought there was a pipe that went across the engine bay to the 'inlet' side of the engine bay. Is there?

[arjunior45]

Mine got removed when I swapped over to a supersprint exhaust manifold.

Just a couple of Q's though, what did you use to blank off the inlet hole? Copper?

And for some reason I thought there was a pipe that went across the engine bay to the 'inlet' side of the engine bay. Is there?

To blank off the inlet hole I use two {2} metallic - iron plates {no Copper} that I found among other parts I have for the other cars, with a couple of DIY flanges and headgasket sealant.

The only metallic pipe that there was in this system is the long one you can see in the first picture. Starts from the hole on the exhaust manifold {white circle in the third picture, blanked off with a bold} and soon makes a turn of 90 degrees towards back, passing over the expansion?s box tube {this tube was melted in my Q4} just on the right of the camshafts black plastic cover. At the back end of the cover {where the tube makes a turn also} turns on the left for another 90 degrees and end up to the valve fixed on the inlet manifold ? where I put the iron plates.

Hope this will help you.

Nick