View Full Version : Alternative turbos?
Are there any other turbos that bolt straight on to the Q4?
wrinx
RMB-Racing
23-12-07, 23:36
Yes there is!
The exhaust manifold on the Q4, comes stock with a T3 flange.
You can take the stock turbu which is a Garret T3 and converted it to a hybrid, where you use the turbine side of the Garret T4.
Or you can simply change it to the Garret T4 turbo. But then you will get more lag.
My suggestion is the hybrid. Its good for approx 420 Bhp.
Another alternative, is too change the exhaustmanifold to a custom build ala the one from Supersprint, but with a T25 flange.
Then you have all the opportunities in the world with all Garrets ball bearings turbos.
Anything with a T3 flange will, although some may need oil feed and exhaust pipe mods.
The T3 from an integrale 16v/Evo 1 will be a totally direct swap.
It all depends on how much power/driveability you want........
Has anyone fitted a GT28 series to a Q4? A lot of Coupe owners do this but some mods are required.
Steve Webb
24-12-07, 10:18
When I needed a new turbo, I went for the T3/T4 hybrid with a new Supersprint manifold. Completely changed the turbo response.
It's a T3/4 I'm thinking of, the GT28 looks like a really expensive conversion from what I've read.
wrinx
dont forget to price in a re-map to get the best out of it :)
Good point, I hadn't thought of that :doh::eek:
wrinx
lol
i only know cos i spent a few hundreds on a hybrid for one of my uno T`s a long time ago and found it had made no difference at all !!
but taking it back to the garage which chipped it on std turbo soon sorted it.
I guess that it would still count for a q4 tho it has a far more sophisticated fueling system, as you will be making more compressed inlet air but not adding any more fuel to burn with it.
cuore_sportivo_155
26-12-07, 06:04
you would, since the map sensor will tell the engine it's boosting more...
RMB-Racing
26-12-07, 09:42
It's a T3/4 I'm thinking of, the GT28 looks like a really expensive conversion from what I've read.
wrinx
No more expensive with a T3/4 - if you are changing the exhaust manifold as well.
The flange on the manifold has to be a T25 flange though.
Such manifolds can be bought on this site: www.ar-racingshop.de/index.php (http://www.ar-racingshop.de/index.php)
Its in german - sorry!
If you can find anything, i?ll can get the prober links.
But my choice will be the T3/4, with another exhaust manifold.
No more expensive with a T3/4 - if you are changing the exhaust manifold as well.
The flange on the manifold has to be a T25 flange though.
Hi RMB, my knowledge of turbos is growing (slowly) but I am confused by the above.
Wouldn't a GT28, require a T28 flange instead of a T25?
Have I got this thought out wrong? What is the 25, 28 an actually measurement of?
RMB-Racing
28-12-07, 16:43
Hi RMB, my knowledge of turbos is growing (slowly) but I am confused by the above.
Wouldn't a GT28, require a T28 flange instead of a T25?
Have I got this thought out wrong? What is the 25, 28 an actually measurement of?
Your right - it can be very confusion - and my knowledge of turbos is growing too every day! :tasty:
When we are talking Garret Turbochargers, there are two flanges we are interested in.
(There are several more - but of no important for us)
The T3 flange and the T25 flange.
The T3 is for the Garret T3, T4 and of course the various hybrids we can make of these versions.
The T25 flange is for all the Garret ball bearings turbos (except the GT40), which opens a bigger world, regarding lots of horsepowers.
The T25 flange is also used on the TB28, which is the original turbo on the Fiat Coupe 20VT.
But our problem is, that our stock exhaust manifolds is whit a T3 flange, and therefore is our options limited too the T3 and T4 turbos.
But www.ar-racingshp.de (http://www.ar-racingshp.de) are selling exhaust manifolds whit T25 flange.
But bare in mind - bigger turbo - bigger lag!
The hole idea, is too have a small turbine side of the turbo as possible, and a big compression side of the turbo as possible.
The hole idea, is too have a small turbine side of the turbo as possible, and a big compression side of the turbo as possible.
Just like the T3/T4 Hybrid ?
Thanks RMB, thats clearer now :)
RMB-Racing
28-12-07, 23:16
Just like the T3/T4 Hybrid ?
Exactly!
And that is the setup I?m personally is going for.
And then a custom exhaust manifold with a T3 flange.
My target is about the 400 bhp.
I could also use a custom exhaust manifold whit a T25 flange, and the fit it with fx. a GT2871RS (Which I have on my 260 bhp Passat).
But i think the T3/4 Hybrid is almost perfect for our cars. All the connections fits like standard. It doesn't on the ball bearings turbos.
Steve Webb
29-12-07, 08:14
But i think the T3/4 Hybrid is almost perfect for our cars. All the connections fits like standard. It doesn't on the ball bearings turbos.
The only thing that I had to change when I changed to a T3/T4 hybrid was the oil return pipe (the one that runs just behind the radiator fan) it just wasn't long enough to connect up satisfactorily. Apart from that, it all slotted together fine.
jimnielsen
29-12-07, 08:36
Steve, did the car require any remapping to go with the t3/t4. Did you notice immediate performance improvements?
JimN~
Steve Webb
29-12-07, 09:01
Can't really say how much of a difference the change to a T3/4 hybrid made as the turbo it replaced was on its last legs. Also at the same time I had a new exhaust and supersprint exhaust manifold. So it wasn't really a turbo swap, more of a complete exhaust system upgrade.
What I can say with all these changes is that the boost comes in much earlier and smoother now, and doesn't fall off until much higher up the rev range.
The car was remapped, it was already running an Evocars chip (Integrale/Q4 hybrid) but was set up on a rolling road to make sure everything was as it should be.
RMB-Racing
29-12-07, 10:06
Steve, did the car require any remapping to go with the t3/t4. Did you notice immediate performance improvements?
JimN~
I will say that a remapping is a must, every time we are fitting another turbo.
But it can be a expensive matter, so my advice is to wait until you have made all you changes.
RMB-Racing
29-12-07, 10:08
Can't really say how much of a difference the change to a T3/4 hybrid made as the turbo it replaced was on its last legs. Also at the same time I had a new exhaust and supersprint exhaust manifold. So it wasn't really a turbo swap, more of a complete exhaust system upgrade.
What I can say with all these changes is that the boost comes in much earlier and smoother now, and doesn't fall off until much higher up the rev range.
The car was remapped, it was already running an Evocars chip (Integrale/Q4 hybrid) but was set up on a rolling road to make sure everything was as it should be.
What is the data now then?
Bhp, tourge, revs etc etc...???
I was about to ask Steve the same question. Why am I so curious?
Because I have one for my Q4...but the reconstruction comes first. I wonder what's expecting me...aiaiaiiiiii
RMB-Racing
29-12-07, 19:45
I was about to ask Steve the same question. Why am I so curious?
Because I have one for my Q4...but the reconstruction comes first. I wonder what's expecting me...aiaiaiiiiii
Why dont you change the exhaust manifold as well???
Why dont you change the exhaust manifold as well???
I'm thinking to a custom made one or even a Supersprint...
At the moment I'm prepairing for the rebuilding of my Q4 (if it's the right word) because I've bought it in a not very good condition. I'm sure I will spent a lot of money and time with the project but... "Il cuore ha sempre raggione".
Cheers,
Chris
if you change to the t3/t4 hybrid, what about stronger bolts and compression, will all this be ok?
I'm using a Gt28rs with inox exhaust manifold (like supersprint), oem interior.
Steve Webb
10-01-08, 09:02
Sorry, I'd forgotten about this thread, I'll dig out the dyno plots and post them up here.
With regards to head bolts etc, from talking to tuners before, the standard head gasket is safe up to about 1.4 -1.5 bar boost, the Spesso gp N gasket is good to 1.7 and its at these sort of levels that you ought to be thinking about 12mm head bolts .
With the T3/T4 hybrid turbo you change the way the engine produces boost, not necessarily the max amount it produces. (boost produced earlier/more boost available further up the rev range)
Steve Webb
10-01-08, 10:48
Here are the plots and summary. BHP/torque drop off so quickly because of a restrictive rear exhaust that was fitted at the time of the plots
http://www.berlinasportivo.org/forumpics/summary.jpg
http://www.berlinasportivo.org/forumpics/bhp.jpg
http://www.berlinasportivo.org/forumpics/torque.jpg
If you want to use the standard exhaust manifold you can also fit the turbosfrom Volvos 2,5 l. 5-cyl. engines. You have to make an adapter ring but that is cheap and simple. With a Mitsubishi TD04-19T you get a spool up no Garrett T3 can match and a maximum power of about 320 hp. If you go for the KKK-K24 you can get up to about 400 hp. Personally I wouldn't go for a Garrett if I considered a new manifold, simply because they are not top of the line. Best off-shelf turbo today is the twin scroll IHI VF39 (Impreza STI) which can take you to about 350 hp. Various Mitsubishi's are also very good. Otherwise there should be a new Schwitzer (Borg Warner) S1 with a 350 hp capacity and excellent spool up.
The no 1 reason to do modifications is the limited capacity of the compressor in the standard TB0367. But if you want a cheap and simple upgrade I would say that a trim 60 compressor upgrade is a good ?500 investment for 300 hp and unaffected spool up.
I have a KKK-K24 (400 hp) at the moment on standard manifold but I do not use the full potential (only ~320 hp) so I consider a "downgrade". So if anyone is interested in turbo + software (free flow exhaust + uprated fuel pump needed) I might consider to sell the kit.
/Andreas
Argh, that all confused me :lol:
My plan is to get a different manifold a then a T3/T4. I don't want to spend a HUGE amount of money but these parts and a remap is going to be a lot (@?13-1500)!
Can a hybrid be made from my current T3 turbo or is it better to start from new?
wrinx
RMB-Racing
11-01-08, 08:15
Argh, that all confused me :lol:
Take it easy! :tasty: It doesn't have to be that thecnical....
My plan is to get a different manifold a then a T3/T4. I don't want to spend a HUGE amount of money but these parts and a remap is going to be a lot (@?13-1500)!
The best way to go!
Can a hybrid be made from my current T3 turbo or is it better to start from new?
It can, but bare in mind that your bearings and axle maybe need and overhaul, and your turbindeside most likely have little tiny long "openings" (I don't now the exact word)...
When you make a hybrid T3/4 - you use the turbine side from the original T3, and you put the compressorside from a T4 - and voil? you have e relative cheep new turbocharger which can give you approx 400-420 bhp.
So forget about the other thecnical stuff, earlier writen... :tasty:
wrinx
Webmaster! - Why do I have too post minimum ten words here, before I can submit my post???
RMB-Racing
11-01-08, 08:25
If you want to use the standard exhaust manifold you can also fit the turbosfrom Volvos 2,5 l. 5-cyl. engines. You have to make an adapter ring but that is cheap and simple. With a Mitsubishi TD04-19T you get a spool up no Garrett T3 can match and a maximum power of about 320 hp. If you go for the KKK-K24 you can get up to about 400 hp. Personally I wouldn't go for a Garrett if I considered a new manifold, simply because they are not top of the line. Best off-shelf turbo today is the twin scroll IHI VF39 (Impreza STI) which can take you to about 350 hp. Various Mitsubishi's are also very good. Otherwise there should be a new Schwitzer (Borg Warner) S1 with a 350 hp capacity and excellent spool up.
The no 1 reason to do modifications is the limited capacity of the compressor in the standard TB0367. But if you want a cheap and simple upgrade I would say that a trim 60 compressor upgrade is a good ?500 investment for 300 hp and unaffected spool up.
I have a KKK-K24 (400 hp) at the moment on standard manifold but I do not use the full potential (only ~320 hp) so I consider a "downgrade". So if anyone is interested in turbo + software (free flow exhaust + uprated fuel pump needed) I might consider to sell the kit.
/Andreas
Why all that "fuzz" about other turbos whit the stock exhaust manifold.
My best advise - if you keep the stock exhaust manifold - is to keep the stock T3 turbo. If you use other chargers with bigger spool time etc. you will very quickly reach the limit for the stock exhaust manifold - and that we don't want! A blown engine could be the worst outcome. Have seen it before on the Lancia Delta?s (16v).
Then its better to just simply remap, and do no other things.
....but bare in mind that your bearings and axle maybe need and overhaul, and your turbine side most likely have little tiny long "openings" (I don't now the exact word)...
When you make a hybrid T3/4 - you use the turbine side from the original T3, and you put the compressor side from a T4 - and voil? you have e relative cheep new turbocharger which can give you approx 400-420 bhp.
Ahh, I didn't realise it literally was the two halves put together! I thought the internals were changed. Thanks.
Then its better to just simply remap, and do no other things.
Yes, I don't plan to mess with the engine too much...until it breaks!!! I only want about 250-300bhp but I really want the turbo to come in earlier than it does now.
wrinx
Any good?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/T3-T4-hybrid-Turbo_W0QQitemZ230210983957QQihZ013QQcategoryZ7220 5QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
wrinx
So, if you don't want more than 250-300 hp and want the turbo to come in earlier I see only one alternative for standard flange and/or exhaust manifold: Mitsubishi TD04-19T. 18T will also work but it no good for higher boost pressures. Theese turbos should be able top locate for €400-700. The last figure is from a Volvo dealer.
If you still want better low en torque and spool up the next step is then to get an exhaust manifold with a) small volume b) cylinders coming next to each other in ignition order separated. A spaghetti manifold (supersprint etc.) solves the b issue excellent. If the diameter of the pipes are correctly chosen (often too big) then it is as good as it can be with that concept with respect to a). To take the concept further you have to make a trade-off between volume and accoustic optimisation (pipe length). With 4-2-1 you can get an even smaller volume which will always be favourable for spool up and better performance at some speeds. With the spaghetti type manifold, 4-1, the efficiency will be better at the engine speeds for whichs it is optimised and top end power will certainly be higher. So, as long as you don't push the concept to the absolute limit in maximum power, a compact exhaust manifold will definitely be better.
The standard manifold is compact, but has too large diameter and no cylinderseparation.
There was a long an interesting thread about this subject a while ago on the evocorner forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/evoforum/messages?msg=15547.152
/A
This is the manifold I was thinking of....
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150196311500&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=005
wrinx
Anyone care to advise on these:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230211607762&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=013
Copy??? - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320205092487&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=011
Spa Racing??? - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230210983957&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=013
wrinx
The exhaust manifold looks good, maybe except for the seam in the middle of cylinder 4 pipe bend and the manufacturer seems to know what he is talking about. The collector is a bit unique, but it is definitely a good idea to stabilise the fllow before it enters the turbine housing.
The turbochargers: I would say it is a bit risky to buy a turbo you don't know the specification or application for. When the label specifies "cust p/n" then you know it is made for a customer's application and the seller should be able to tell you where it comes from. The GT32 was not watercooled, be aware and don't buy if you are not prepared to take the extra care it requires. The long turbine outlet from the GT32 could complicate the downpipe design/geometry. The Garrett 732409 has for sure a T3-flange but in the wrong direction. It comes from a Hino truck and is therefore Diesel optimised. It might be good, but the turbine material could possibly not be sufficently heat resistant for a Spark Ignition engine.
/A
Thanks....this reinforces that I need to ask questions here before buying!!!
Does anyone have a good source for t3/4 turbos?
wrinx
Steve, what you want for your is the same as I want for mine, about 300 bhp would do nicely...its just what it needs to be a really drivable car..watching with interest :D
That's my plan, but finances will make it a long journey :( That's why I want to keep the T3 flange so that I can replace bits one at a time.
Plan is...turbo - manifold - exhaust - remap.
wrinx
Thanks....this reinforces that I need to ask questions here before buying!!!
Does anyone have a good source for t3/4 turbos?
wrinx
Hi,
when i have looked around ebay at those import turbos (which are very cheap has to be said...)
most/many do not seem to have the wastegate built into the housing/casting, which would then mean needing to add in the cost of an external job and any associated mods.
so theres something else for you to worry about Wrinx !
Not planning on buying one of the new ones from ebay, they all seem to be made of putty!
Will have to see how the finances go....!
wrinx
I'm getting more and more confused now....been reading about T3/T4 and T3/TO4E, both appear to be oil cooled only.
Water/oil cooled....what's the difference apart from the obvious!
Where can I get a turbo to fit a Q4 at a reasonable price?
wrinx
Well, if you are after a T3/T4 hybrid take a look at the link to the evorner forum in my former post. The user-ID "turbodelt" offers, besides the manifolds he market in that thread, also a range of very competitive T3/T4 turbos in various price/performance levels. I do think his email is info@wumatex.ch. Well, you can check his name in the thread and try the adress first. He seems to be very serious.
But, best 300 hp for money on T3 flange, based on boost build up rpm and spool up, is probably the Mitsubishi TD04-19T.
/A
Also fitted to Volvo's!
http://www.wothrline.se/accessories/turbochargers_p2.htm
Do they bolt straight on or need some fiddling about? I noticed the "tilted outlet" description on the website above.
wrinx
The 19T (and probably also the 18T, except for the turbine outlet) should be exchangable with the KKK-K24 I use and refering to that one I have made the following adaptions:
1. A plastic ring on the compressor inlet, since the outer diameter is slightly smaller than on the T3. The T3 has very thick walls in the inlet. (?10-15)
2. A 3.5 mm thick square-to-round adaptor ring between exh manifold and turbine. Machine the ring and then make the shape of the hole with a hand held grinding machine. (?20)
3. The 3" "elbow" between turbine and downpipe. The turbine outlet is angled ~20 degrees forward. This one is casted in the original installation and it holds the lambda sensor. The total assembly was 1 kg lighter with my new turbo and "elbow". (?100)
If you go for this solution I can send you pictures by E-mail.
/A
Pictures would be good :cool:
wrinx
I realised I don't have the pictures in digital form - and I will not be in my office, where I have a scanner, in two weeks time. Maybe I have diassembled the turbo and manifold before that so that I can take some digital photos. I just don't understand if it is possible to post pictures on this site or if I need a webpage.....
Send me a private message if you want pictures by E-mail. Maybe I will be able to post pictures here, maybe not :)
/A
You can attach images by using the "Manage Attachments" button lower down the page on the "Post Reply" (not the quick reply page)
How about this one....
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300183517465&ssPageName=MERCOSI_VI_ROSI_PR4_PCN_BIX&refitem=160198646552&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&refwidgettype=osi_widget
wrinx
Or these:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130092832440&ssPageName=MERCOSI_VI_ROSI_PR4_PCN_BIX&refitem=160198646552&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&refwidgettype=osi_widget
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130092830988&ssPageName=MERCOSI_VI_ROSI_PR4_PCN_BIX&refitem=160198646552&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&refwidgettype=osi_widget
wrinx
I would get quote to have your re-built in to a T3/4. I think that would be cheaper than ?550 delivered. TurboTechnics - they didnt reply to my email with a quote but I am sure they will b helpful on the phone.
Yeah, not a bad plan but I'm a little suspicious of re-builders (suddenly the job gets bigger and more expensive!), unless by recommendation.
wrinx
Turbo Technics...?585!!!
http://www.turbotechnics.com/docs/turbo/hybridrange.htm
wrinx
Ok, Finally I found some pictures of my turbo installation. This is what it looks like when you have fitted any of the Volvo 5-cylinder compartible turbos with tilted 3" outlet on a standard 155 Q4 exhaust manifold. Oil connections are located in same positions as on Garrett T3.
The turbo in the picture is a KKK-K24, as fitted on current Volvo S60/V70 R, buth with bigger compressor. This unit is capable of 400 hp, the compressor alone 420 hp.
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