View Full Version : Timing belt change - parts?
What exactly do I need....?
T=Timing belt
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g118/wrinx/Q4/timing.jpg
B=Balancer belt
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g118/wrinx/Q4/balancer.jpg
A=Aux/PAS/alternator belts (this one is confusing me!!!!)
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g118/wrinx/Q4/aux_ps.jpg
wrinx
I reckon...
T=5+11+6
B=12+3+5+2
A=12+ (9 or 13) +10
I thought 12 was the PAS??? Is it the aircon? SGR41208 is the PAS pump.
wrinx
Steve Webb
29-10-07, 19:34
(Top pic) belt #12 goes between the aircon and PAS. The PAS pump is relayed through the aircon pump. If that makes sense.
For the timing belt isn't #6 the drive pulley from the crank? If so don't think you need to change it. 11+5
For the balance belt I think 12+3
(Top pic) belt #12 goes between the aircon and PAS. The PAS pump is relayed through the aircon pump. If that makes sense.
Yes it does, that's what I thought was going on. So why 9 or 13 (or am I being thick?).
For the timing belt isn't #6 the drive pulley from the crank? If so don't think you need to change it. 11+5
Yes, you're right :doh:
For the balance belt I think 12+3
Number five looks like it has a bearing (6)...is it not critical?
Thankfully I got the balancer belt and idler cheap on ebay as they're about ?115 for the pair!!!
wrinx
Steve Webb
29-10-07, 20:11
Number five looks like it has a bearing (6)...is it not critical?
wrinx
Isn't that the bearing the balance shaft sits in though?
Not a clue :bowdown:
:lol:
wrinx
cuore_sportivo_155
30-10-07, 01:29
so the waterpump isn't driven by the timing belt then?
Ah, forgot about the water pump!
Yes, it will be...
wrinx
Not driven by the timing belt but if you can get one for a good price then id change it :)
Have you ever touhgt that this belt is too thin? Here in Finland, we have lot of problem, how long this timing belt last. My last original timing belt has only 30 000 km and I lost 4 valves. The timing belt doen?t snap, it loose it?s thoots. Before that my timing belt last 18 000 km.
Now I changed that belt and but 1" belt in. We have in Finland custom made 1" belt, which have two adjustable camshaft pulleys , couple of extra parts, which you need to install this belt,
See that last picture of this site http://www.heikka.fi/hihnapyorat.html
And if you change your belt allways change your waterpump, because you can?t take it off without taking out the timing belt.
I take off my balancer shaft belt, because of that 1" timing belt. It don?t fit anymore, because 1" belt take so much space.
I take off my balancer shaft belt, because of that 1" timing belt. It don?t fit anymore, because 1" belt take so much space.
Did you do any changes to make the engine run smooth without the belt?
No changes, Just take out balancer shafts pulleys and ready to drive.
I have to also tell you, that I can?t drive my car now(clutch, flywheel etc.), but I will tell you more later, how the car runs without that balancer belt.
No changes, Just take out balancer shafts pulleys and ready to drive.
I guess you needed to make up some nice caps to cover where the shafts went. If I build myself a "quick" engine one day I will do this :)
Steve Webb
30-10-07, 17:37
I guess you needed to make up some nice caps to cover where the shafts went. If I build myself a "quick" engine one day I will do this :)
I think he mean't just remove the pulleys on the end of the balance shafts. If you remove the shafts you have to plug up their oil feeds.
I've heard people do this before with no noticeable increase in vibration, but also no performance gain either (or minimal) But I didn't realise you needed to do it to fit the 1" belt.
Steve Webb
30-10-07, 17:38
Have you ever touhgt that this belt is too thin? Here in Finland, we have lot of problem, how long this timing belt last. My last original timing belt has only 30 000 km and I lost 4 valves. The timing belt doen?t snap, it loose it?s thoots. Before that my timing belt last 18 000 km.
Now I changed that belt and but 1" belt in. We have in Finland custom made 1" belt, which have two adjustable camshaft pulleys , couple of extra parts, which you need to install this belt,
See that last picture of this site http://www.heikka.fi/hihnapyorat.html
And if you change your belt allways change your waterpump, because you can?t take it off without taking out the timing belt.
I take off my balancer shaft belt, because of that 1" timing belt. It don?t fit anymore, because 1" belt take so much space.
So how much is the kit? and how long does the belt last for km's?
I think he mean't just remove the pulleys on the end of the balance shafts. If you remove the shafts you have to plug up their oil feeds.
I've heard people do this before with no noticeable increase in vibration, but also no performance gain either (or minimal) But I didn't realise you needed to do it to fit the 1" belt.
I drove mine without the balance belt for about 500 miles and when I put it back on there was a noticeable difference in vibration when accelerating
I will always run with one from now on unless I get the crank balanced properly
Hope I can explain that to all.
No need to make extra caps. Only take off that belt and the pulleys. Let them be there, no harm. Just a little bit safer engine. :)
No horsepower on my mind, when we take that belt off.
When you put that 1" belt the distance between cam pulleys and beltwheel? ( that part which is lowest part in the way of belt) is not the same as original.And I mean the distance between cam pulleys and engine. So you have only 2-3 mm distance between 1" belt and balancer shaft pulley.(the first one, when you look your engine forward). Manufacturer recommended that, that pulley will be taken off. It is hard to explain and I don`t have any pictures. Sorry.
This set costs little bit over 400 € and it is full set. The belt is from fiat ducato 1.9 diesel engine. I don?t know where the beltwheel? is from, but it?s ordered from factory of fiat, so it will be genuine original part also. The rest are custom made parts. Manufacturer of this set recommended that same 60 000 km as Alfa Romeo, but as you all know that 60 tkm is a little bit too much for that original belt.
When I get my engine and clutch ready I will make some test drives and tell you better feelings of the car. Hope I get also few extra horsepowers also ;)
Anyone managed to figure out the 9 or 13 issue in picture three? ;)
wrinx
Errrm, what am I missing?
13 - crank pulley drives the aircon pump.
9 - air con pulley drives the PS pump...
Although in the second diagram of pic 3, there is a wierd drawing of the air con pump pulley - only shows one drive area on it...
EDIT - JUST REALISED MULTIPLE PART NUMBERS - CONFUSED X2 HERE!
Il guess that the top diagram is for cars with AC and the bottom one is for those without - although I thought the all had AC as standard...
Steve Webb
30-10-07, 23:32
Il guess that the top diagram is for cars with AC and the bottom one is for those without - although I thought the all had AC as standard...
All the UK cars had A/C , but not sure about elsewhere. So both belts 9 & 12 are needed for UK cars. Ignore belt #13 refers to non A/C car (Non UK)
Juan AR155Q4
31-10-07, 22:27
Il guess that the top diagram is for cars with AC and the bottom one is for those without - although I thought the all had AC as standard...
All the UK cars had A/C , but not sure about elsewhere. So both belts 9 & 12 are needed for UK cars. Ignore belt #13 refers to non A/C car (Non UK)
That?s right, and the belts is not the same as in one conects the PS and in the other the AC.
Juan AR155Q4
31-10-07, 22:34
For Balancer is 12 + 5 + 3
5 and 3 are bearings and will be good to change them.
They are not from balancer shafts. One is for the balancer belt tensioner, and the other changes direction of the timing belt.
Thanks everyone....think we got there in the end :smoke::cheers:
wrinx
You've already figured it but just to clarify..
On non AC cars the power steering pump mounts between the mounts of the aircon and the mounts for the power steering (with aircon). So there are 3 belts for that combination:
with aircon:
-belt from crank to air con pump
-belt from aircon to power steering
without aircon:
-belt from crank to power steering (which is a different length to the crank -> air con above)
I went through all this headache trying to figure what I needed when I junked the aircon pump. The mountings for the aircon & power steering are quite cleverly designed.
are quite cleverly designed.
Theres a first for everything!:eek::smoke:
155'Ringman
03-11-07, 23:56
When I changed my belts I got bearings from Tanc Barrett (Which he recommended) to fit in the tensioner and the idler IIRC. You'll have fun with the bolt holding on the rear section of the belt cover.....
It goes through a water jacket so when you take it out, you'll get soaked :-)
I think the only other thing that gave me trouble was that bl**dy PAS & AC arrangement.
So....can I just replace the cambelt tensioner bearing and not the whole thing???
wrinx
So....can I just replace the cambelt tensioner bearing and not the whole thing???
wrinx
I got it as one piece item from Walkers.
Can you remember how much? Never thought of going to them, was just going to the dealer :?
wrinx
I dont unfortunately, didnt ask. I believe they are just main dealer prices though.
jimnielsen
27-10-08, 10:25
Now that I have had a fair bit of track time with the Q4 - I'd like to replace its timing / balance and accessory belts if I can. I have read this thread - and I am still confused as to what exactly i need. I'd like to remove the air conditioner compressor at the same time as well - so I'd like to use a belt set that will allow this.. :)
Is there a single part number from a single supplier that I can use for all of this?
Thanks - jimn~
Would you order them by an Alfa dealer or would you want to order them via the UK?
http://www.alternativeautos.co.uk/ are very helpful...I dont think there is one single part number for a kit though.
jimnielsen
27-10-08, 11:16
I'd don't think that I can get any of the required parts here, I'll email the guys at alternative autos - and see if they will ship to oz :) ... thanks for the lead.
jimn~
jimnielsen
27-10-08, 11:38
I contacted Steve from Alternative autos - a complete kit is 125.95 (pounds) including the belts and tensioner parts. Does that sound about right? They will even ship it direct to me...
:)
cheers, jimn~
Sounds reasonable to me, the parts from a dealer would be much more.
I would check exactly what the kit consists of...don't want to be short of an idler or bearing!
wrinx
I contacted Steve from Alternative autos - a complete kit is 125.95 (pounds) including the belts and tensioner parts. Does that sound about right? They will even ship it direct to me...
:)
cheers, jimn~
Yes, that is about right, probably plus 17.5% and shipping..
Here is some more info and diagrams:
http://forum.berlinasportivo.org/showthread.php?t=1055&highlight=cam+belt+part+numbers
and a parts number list:
http://forum.berlinasportivo.org/showpost.php?p=7914&postcount=21
jimnielsen
27-10-08, 20:17
thanks - I will get them ordered. Is the operation needed to fit them all - more OR less difficult than changing the clutch? Space looks, well um.. tight!
Dead easy job imho...but then I've not changed the clutch yet :lol:
A flywheel locking tool makes life MUCH easier and you'll need another "special" tool to remove the Balancer shaft bolt.
Then it's just like doing the belts on any car really. Thought I posted my experiences recently....
If you change the water pump you'll need to drop the engine, I managed by just taking out the upper and lower engine mounts (belt side) and letting it down the inch or so that it drops.
Edit: I'm wrong, my only post was this:
Well.....finished the belts and water pump today.
Not a bad job to be honest...just time consuming :rolleyes:
I can confirm that dropping the engine 25mm (undo the top and bottom engine mounts) will give enough space...although I did have to get naughty and use a crowbar to get the WP pulley wheel out :eek:
So none of that nonsense that the manual tells you!
wrinx
wrinx
This might help too:
http://forum.berlinasportivo.org/showthread.php?t=1153&highlight=locking+tool
wrinx
jimnielsen
27-10-08, 21:55
thanks, Wrinx - I'd forgotten about the flywheel locking too - will have to make one - not so sure about the other special tool that is needed. It'll probably still be two weeks before I have all the stuff. I've never changed the timing belts on a car before - hence my apprehension. I am not planning on changing the water pump - if it fails I will use an electric one instead anyway. Any hints on the problems associated with changing to a 'non ac compressor' config?
thanks, jimn~
Gery has also asked this question http://forum.berlinasportivo.org/showthread.php?t=1279 and I can confirm it was AJ who did this as his post is at the top of this very thread :lol:
Doing belts on cars is fairly straight forward....just make sure the timing marks line up correctly, tension the belt so it's tight when twisting approx. 90degrees by hand, along it's longest run.
These are the timing marks:
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g118/wrinx/Q4/BeltsEtc/Q4_TimingBeltMarks.jpg
Rotate the engine BY HAND at least twice after fitting the belts, to check for valve to piston contact and other nasty noises.
Got to be less difficult than the clutch...few hours work really. I remember you wanted a guide which typically I didnt get round to but I did find one on the Fiat Coupe website:
http://www.fiatcoupe.net/howto.php?ID=1&chapter=9#content2
BTW, when the water pump breaks it doesn't just stop pumping water, it leaks everywhere too :(
...although hopefully you'll get some warning like I did, fluid leaking and copious amounts of steam :rolleyes:
wrinx
jimnielsen
03-11-08, 05:30
I received my timing belt kit today - I'd like to put it on before I use the car again. Should be interesting. You can see the part numbers of the various components in this pic.
cheers, jimn~
Juan AR155Q4
03-11-08, 17:34
Does someone have a pic of what looks like to mark for the countershaft pulley (intake side)?
I?ve always aligned to the bolt of the water pump iirc.
@jimn, great to have the parts #, thanks!
Does someone have a pic of what looks like to mark for the countershaft pulley (intake side)?
I?ve always aligned to the bolt of the water pump iirc.
@jimn, great to have the parts #, thanks!
That is correct - pointing down.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g118/wrinx/Q4/BeltsEtc/Q4_TimingBeltMarks.jpg
Same as the picture posted above :deal::fp:
Wonder if this would help with the BS?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280280953054
wrinx
jimnielsen
04-11-08, 06:49
...
OK - so I didn't read the post below from Ringman well enough (see below...) - so i DID get soaked! Apart from that removing the belts was (pretty) straight forwards! The belts both look to be in sound condition but the bearing for the lower balance shaft is in very poor condition - I think that just the belts were changed on this car - not the bearings.
I removed the 22mm nut on the crankshaft with a rattle gun. Nothing to it.
The balance belt could be twisted on its longest length about 180 degrees - the timing belt about 110 degrees.
Ok.. The Big Question!!
I think I know how to put the thing back together... but I want to convert the car to a NON air conditioning compressor system by removing the AC compressor. Can I just remove the compressor and use a belt direct from the crank to the power-steering pump in its current position ** OR ** do I have to move the power-steering pump to a new position? Do the AC cars have the correct mounting hardware if I have to move the pump?
thanks, jimn~
When I changed my belts I got bearings from Tanc Barrett (Which he recommended) to fit in the tensioner and the idler IIRC. You'll have fun with the bolt holding on the rear section of the belt cover.....
It goes through a water jacket so when you take it out, you'll get soaked :-)
I think the only other thing that gave me trouble was that bl**dy PAS & AC arrangement.
I'd guess you can just remove it and stick the non-aircon belt on....was AJ able to help?
wrinx
jimnielsen
04-11-08, 08:21
no - the ps pump will need to be moved for it to be driven direct from the crank belt location that currently drives the AC compressor...the question is does the setup I have contain this new mount point...
jimn~
Doh..the PS pump is the top one! I thought AJ had done this...someone certainly has.
I need to check ePER but there's possibly a different bracket available...which flags up a vague memory of someone fabricating their own as the OE version was too much or unobtainable.
Same guy who fabricated his own inlet manifold I think...does that remind anyone else???
wrinx
Same guy who fabricated his own inlet manifold I think...does that remind anyone else???
wrinx
djsly maybe, will need to trawl through over on .org...
Maybe this will help:
http://alfa155.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=227294&highlight=#227294
I wonder how it is done on an Integrale...
I wonder how it is done on an Integrale...
Hmmm, I wonder who knows......:rolleyes:
It's a separate belt which runs between the AC pump and the PS pump which has a twin pulley on it. :smoke:
I had replied to Jim & Gery83, but yes it is possible to do away with the AC pump. The PS pump then moves down slightly (I think taking the upper mount from the original AC pump mount, and the lower of the original PS pump mount).
The twin pulley on the PS pump can then be reversed (3 bolts) and it will be in line with the crank pulley.
You can't run a straight belt from the crank to the power steering pump in the original location. All the mounts are there for it to be lowered if junking the AC pump - nothing extra was needed (on a Coupe 16vt). It might be a bit of a PITA with it all in situ, but far from impossible.
jimnielsen
04-11-08, 19:31
thanks AJ!! Will give it a go today. From what I can see the front cross-member will need to come off first - but maybe not :)
jimn~
Slightly cheaper cambelt kit option from these guys:
Balcner belt...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FIAT-COUPE-2-0-16V-TURBO-BALANCE-SHAFT-BELT-KIT_W0QQitemZ230228999311QQcmdZViewItem?
Timing belt...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FIAT-COUPE-2-0-16-TURBO-94-96-TIMING-BELT-KIT_W0QQitemZ230221312927QQcmdZViewItem?
...and a FULL locking and tensioning kit!
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FIAT-COUPE-2-0-16V-TURBO-CAMSHAFT-LOCKING-TOOL_W0QQitemZ250039581470QQcmdZViewItem?
wrinx
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