View Full Version : Clutch Problem
jimnielsen
29-08-07, 12:49
Now that I have fixed the boost problems that my Q4 had, it has brought to light another issue. The car drives fine in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears, but in 4th gear, as the boost controller allows the boost to edge up towards 1.1 bar the clutch slips and the rev counter quickly goes to 6.5k RPM. So I am going to have to remove the clutch and replace the clutch plate. Not what I'd hoped for really! I have a few questions....
1. I can't find in the manuals on this site the section on how to remove the clutch - which manual is it actually in?
2. Please tell me that you don't have to take the engine out to remove the clutch?
3. Any recommendations on a clutch plate for a Q4 that is just to be used for track work?
Thanks to all who helped with my boost issues.... JimN
I think clutches like this are good for heavy usage: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/OMP-Racing-228mm-RigidClutch-Plate-ALFA-FIAT-LANCIA_W0QQitemZ330138355348QQihZ014QQcategoryZ100 914QQcmdZViewItem
Engine can remain in place.
I am sure Steve knows the where abouts of the manual to change the clutch...
Its a bit of a read but I guess it might all be here:
http://www.berlinasportivo.com/Technical/q4manual/155Clutch&Diff&Gearbox.pdf
No Haynes manuals for these cars unfortunately :(
jimnielsen
30-08-07, 11:57
From what I can make out in the manuals, you have to remove the gearbox side suspension and drive shaft, as well as the complete lower suspension cross member - prior to removing the gear box and then the clutch. Its a bit hard to tell as there isn't a single manual for the whole operation. Can anybody who has performed a clutch change on a Q4 give me a few pointers. I'd like to remove the minimum amount of "stuff" to get the job done. As I don't have a hoist this is going to be a job done on my back on the garage floor I guess - how high up do I need to get the car to get this job done?
thanks JimN
cuore_sportivo_155
30-08-07, 13:35
did it like that to my twinny also.. better to remove the crossmember, even if you don't have to... gives a bit more room for manoeuvring..
Get the car at least 50 cm off the ground so the box can be taken out easily. try making a ramp to hang the engine in, or support it in another way, don't trust just the engine mounts to the right of the car, that's how you get a nose like a bulldog
jimnielsen
01-09-07, 07:03
Clutch Replacement Commenced!
www.nielsen.org/alfa155Q4/clutchone.jpg
... well I haven't actually got that far along in the process yet!
JimN
Steve Webb
01-09-07, 07:08
NICE Shed!! Plenty of room in there, i'd be out looking for a used 2 post lift, make the job alot easier.
What the other (116 Guilietta?) race car running?
Wow! Very jealous of your shed!!!
Wow! Thought I was well off for garage space but that's impressive!
wrinx
jimnielsen
02-09-07, 12:28
Steve, My other Alfa is a Giulietta (type 116) I think its an 81 model. Its configured as a pure race car, space frame front etc.. Its fun to drive!
This is a quick vid from inside the car at Winton (here in OZ) last year..
MSCA Sprint Winton 14th May
and a before and after build pic...
www.nielsen.org/alfa155Q4/shellstart.jpg
www.nielsen.org/alfa155Q4/newgiulie.jpg
Jim...very nice indeed. Leaving a Corvette standing....!
The grill on your Q4 looks interesting, could you post a picture if you get a minute? ;)
wrinx
jimnielsen
02-09-07, 20:49
grill pic.....
www.nielsen.org/alfa155Q4/smallgrille.jpg
...JimN
Thanks :) Looks like it's had some kind of plastic insert fitted...:cool:
wrinx
jimnielsen
02-09-07, 21:48
yes, it does have insert thingy's but they sure look like they were made as part of the original bumper. This car is a December 1994 build.
JimN
jimnielsen
03-09-07, 09:37
.......... I got the following from alfa155.org... Can anyone confirm this procedure / order for the Q4. I have looked extensively at all the manuals but I'm really confused as to what parts of this are different for the Q4. Do you really have to remove the lower cross member for the Q4? (and hence the exhaust (front)).............
just a quick running order,
Jack the car up & get the wheels off & on stands
loosen driveshaft nuts,
split NS suspension & remove driveshaft
remove battery & tray,
remove slave cylinder & disconnect speedo & reverse switch
support engine,
remove starter & gearbox mounts
loosen subframe bolts/remove NS ones,
loosen/remove bellhousing bolts,
remove gearbox,
remove clutch,
refitting is reverse of removal....
........
all help appreciated.
So far I have jacked up the car, and removed the gearbox side driveshaft... not really sure what to do next.
JimN
cuore_sportivo_155
03-09-07, 17:27
removing the exhaust and the crossmember makes life soo much easier...
jimnielsen
03-09-07, 21:41
Ok, so I will remove the exhaust and the xmember - do i have to disconnect the drive shaft that comes out of the differential and heads towards the rear of the car to get the xmember out?
JimN
I think the gearbox and the centre diff will have to come out a one piece - so you will need to disconnect the prop and the two front drive shatfs. Sorry I cant be more helpful :(
I will try and sort some pics if it helps :)
jimnielsen
03-09-07, 23:08
it sure would help! thanks.. Jimn
Sorry, I thought I had some better photos but these might help a little.
I think you might be able to leave the centre diff in place actually and just remove the gearbox.
http://www.cloverleaf4.co.uk/images/uploads/6548.jpg
http://www.cloverleaf4.co.uk/images/uploads/6549.jpg
http://www.cloverleaf4.co.uk/images/uploads/6550.jpg
http://www.cloverleaf4.co.uk/images/uploads/6551.jpg
jimnielsen
04-09-07, 01:50
Thanks for those great pics.. they will really help, as its hard to see what is joined to what under the car. At least I can see on your pics as well where the starter motor is!
Thanks again..
JimN
Thats my car that is:biggrin:
jimnielsen
04-09-07, 10:08
While I was taking off bits to get the clutch out I was surprised to see that the car has an exhaust gas temperature probe in the exhaust system, as its not mentioned in the manual that specifically covers the Q4 exhaust removal.
www.nielsen.org/alfa155Q4/egt.jpg
Is this something all Q4's have?
JimN
Nope, never seen that! Does it look like someone has put it in as aftermarket?
Wish my flexi pipes were in that gooder condition!
Was it connected to anything? I had a small "something" on the V6 exhaust but never worried about it. My V6 was a Japanese "Sport" model...
wrinx
jimnielsen
05-09-07, 03:13
yes, it has an exhaust gas temp probe that goes into the hole that you can see on the exhaust. The lead is braided metal and it heads to the rear of the car on the passenger side. It is routed along with all the other cables and is definitely something that was fitted when the car was built. I have yet to investigate where it actually goes to back there.
I have made some progress..
www.nielsen.org/alfa155Q4/gb1.jpg
www.nielsen.org/alfa155Q4/gb2.jpg
www.nielsen.org/alfa155Q4/gb3.jpg
Now all I have to to is drain the GB oil, remove the linkages and remove the starter motor (this still looks difficult!)
I am going to make up a "carrier" like the special tool in the manual to lower the GB, and to help in putting it back in...
jimn
jimnielsen
12-09-07, 07:11
Finally got the gearbox out of my Q4. It really is quite a time consuming job, but i have learned a lot about how the car goes together by doing it my self. In the end I had four main problems with the process as it is outlined in the manual.
1. the subframe that connects the lower wishbones is too difficult to remove in one piece. Its much easier to remove the lower wishbones first - then the remainder of the frame.
2. in the manual it does not mention that there is a stud / nut on the gearbox side that needs to be undone along with the other main bellhousing bolts. Its difficult to see and find, just below the starter motor. Simply not mentioned in the manual at all, and very hard to see.
3. there is a small thin steel dust plate that is attached by 2 hex headed screws and a normal 10mm bolt at the lower rear of the bell housing near the sump. The manual says to remove the hex headed screws, but the plate is still attached and prevents the gearbox from being fully removed. Had to get a friend to help me with this, in the end we bent the plate a little so that we could undo the small screw. Wont be putting this bit back in!!
4. a lot of the 18mm and 19mm bolts are done up at least twice as tight as the spec in the manual calls for - making it difficult to undo them in a tight work space.
I made up a Gearbox removal tool like in the manual, but suited to a small floor jack.. it worked a treat!
www.nielsen.org/alfa155Q4/clutch1.jpg
www.nielsen.org/alfa155Q4/clutch2.jpg
www.nielsen.org/alfa155Q4/clutch3.jpg
www.nielsen.org/alfa155Q4/clutch4.jpg
I have a question - Can anyone tell from these pictures if this is the original type of clutch that was fitted to a Q4?
thanks, JimN
Steve Webb
12-09-07, 07:27
Yep, doing anything on a Q4 is always an education. You were lucky that you managed to get all the bolts out. Most of the time when I work on the car when it comes to undoing bolts that have not been undone for a while they seize and snap.
And yes the subframe is a bitch, much easier to get the lower wishbones off first. Less chance of it smacking you in the face when you undo the last bolt.
And as for the clutch, I'd say yes it is an OEM one as its got Fiat stamped on the pressure plate. If you look at some of the big plastic pressings in the car they are all stamped with Fiat/Lancia.
Good luck getting it all back together.
jimnielsen
13-09-07, 07:52
Well, now I have been able to see exactly what was wrong with the clutch. The clutch plate is down to the rivets, and is pretty much had it, the fingers on the pressure plate are worn, the surface on the flywheel is quite bad and the thrust bearing (throwout bearing) need replacing.
www.nielsen.org/alfa155Q4/clutchplate.jpg
www.nielsen.org/alfa155Q4/pressureplate.jpg
www.nielsen.org/alfa155Q4/flywheel.jpg
I have to find replacements for these parts before I put it back together. I have ordered a set of powerflex bushes for the front wishbones...
jimN
Doing a great job, turning in to a good guide this is!
Are you going for an uprated clutch?
jimnielsen
13-09-07, 11:55
I am planning on using OMP Racing part Numbers OIV/LA86/R (rigid 5 paddle clutch plate) and OIS/FI67 (reinforced clutch cover). I have not actually found any way of getting these pieces in Australia at the moment, but I expect that I will. Does anybody know where I can buy a new (standard) thrust bearing??? - as far as I can tell they are not included in the OMP kits... any ideas???
Thanks, JimN
Would your Alfa dealer be able to order them?
wrinx
jimnielsen
20-09-07, 22:41
I'm still confused about the clutch release bearing.... I have ordered the clutch plate and cover from OMP but I still don't know if it contains the release bearing.
Is there actually a separate part number for the bearing? Can someone tell me what the correct alfa part number is for it?
thanks, jimN..
Hi Jim,
If it doesnt have one then this is the part number for the Alfa one: 46465174.
Hello Jim,
I can see that you hvae had a tough time with your clutch. Since I have the same problem with my clutch and plan to do the same job during the winter I wonder if you with the experince you have today recommend me to do the same, remove gearbox+4WDtransmission in on part or to lift out the complete package with engine?
A friend of mine did like you did earlier this year, but he says lifting it all out downwards is his recommendation. However, then you probably need to have the car on a lift.
Good luck with the rest of the job
/A
jimnielsen
25-09-07, 22:08
Hi. #84 .. Most of the confusion that I had over how to remove the clutch came from the way that it is presented in the manuals (that are online here). I needed the manuals as I have never worked on a vehicle of this type before and the process of removing the clutch that is detailed in the manuals is spread over several parts and is both inaccurate and incomplete. However now that I have done it once (spread over several days) I think I could remove and replace it in a weekend. I would recommend simply removing the transmission (along with the attached torque distributor) from under the car. I left the rear wheels on the ground and simply jacked up the car so that the front bumper was 600mm above the floor level. You do need to remove a lot of stuff to get the gearbox out (in order to remove the clutch...).
A basic order would be..
1. remove front section of exhaust including cats.
2. remove battery box
3. remove gearbox side front hub nut.
4. remove wheel arch dust covers.
5. remove all bolts from gearbox side drive shaft.
6. remove both lower wishbones.
7. disconnect driveshaft from differential near engine
8. remove lower suspension subframe.
9. remove starter motor.
10. disconnect fittings from gearbox (electrics, links, dipstick tube etc..)
11. make support for gearbox that can be attached to a std floor jack (see manual).. attach.
12. remove lower small brackets that connect engine to gearbox.
13. remove bolts that secure torque distributor to engine
14. remove bolts that secure bell housing to engine
15. remove small sheetmetal "dustguard" between engine and gearbox.
16. lower gearbox.
17. remove clutch.
most of the difficulties are with bolts that are on tight and thus hard to remove in a confined space. I have lots of photos of the process if you need em... cheers
~jim
155'Ringman
26-09-07, 12:17
Good job Jim, especially like the trolley jack tool for taking the box off.
Just looking at the picture of your flywheel, it looks badly crazed with lots of small cracks. I take it you're going for a new one?
jimnielsen
26-09-07, 13:03
Well, I would get a new one, but I sure have no idea how I would obtain one here, so I am just having the old one machined. I think it will be fine :)
JimN ~
Ok, Thank you Jim for your detailed work description.
Just one question:
3. I am not sure what you mean with "front hub nut". Please clarify
/Andreas
The large nut which holds the driveshaft to the hub (where the wheel fixes).
wrinx
The large nut which holds the driveshaft to the hub (where the wheel fixes).
wrinx
36mm with a torque wrench setting that no torque wrench bar can match!!:eek:
jimnielsen
04-10-07, 11:46
yes, its 36mm. I had to grind off one mm of the outside diameter of a $50.00 socket to get it to fit the inside diameter on the hub to get it on the nut. Then I used a 2 meter hollow steel bar over a solid 3/4" breaker bar to remove the nut. I actually had to use a friend who is stronger than I to make this happen! I would estimate that we were putting about 600 ft/lb onto the nut!
JimN~
I had to grind off one mm of the outside diameter of a $50.00 socket to get it to fit the inside diameter on the hub to get it on the nut.
That sounds about right:cry: I expect there is an expensive Special Alfa Tool for it though..
Get yaself a battery powered windy gun ;)
wrinx
Get yaself a battery powered windy gun ;)
wrinx
Lol, or a battery powered IMPACT drill:tongue2:
jimnielsen
08-10-07, 21:23
Hi All.
Still don't have the new clutch yet... but I am struggling with the release bearing part numbers. On ePER it says that the release bearing is part # 46465174. But this is also the release bearing for the 147 which does not have a push clutch. Alfa Romeo here (in Australia) say that ePER is wrong and that the bearing should really be part number 46821337 - which is the same part number for another (newer Alfa) that also has a pull clutch like the 155 Q4.
Does anybody have any insight into this?
Thanks, JimN~
I guess, get them to order it, then take the old one along and compare, if its wrong, dont hand over any money, or if you have to pay upfront, get a refund as they would have badly advised you...
jimnielsen
16-10-07, 02:17
When I was removing the gearbox to get access to the clutch, I had trouble removing the box because there was still a bolt holding the clutch "dust guard" - It was bolt "C" in these pictures. Eventually I actually bent the guard in my efforts to get the gearbox off allowing me to see that there was a bolt still to be undone and also to get access to it.
The manual shows how to remove bolts A and B - but it just ignores the existence of bolt C altogether! My question is this.....
As you can see bolt C is behind the torque distributor and very close to the the center differential, is it possible to replace bolt C without first removing the center differential. Should it have been possible to remove bolt C with the clutch bellhousing bolts still fully tightened?
www.nielsen.org/alfa155Q4/cc1copy.jpg
www.nielsen.org/alfa155Q4/cc3copy.jpg
www.nielsen.org/alfa155Q4/cc2copy.jpg
Thanks, JimN
This also gave me trouble, in the end I was a bit heavy handed and the metal just tore I think - But I really can remember what I did now to get bolted back in - if djsly sees this he may be able to comment as his engine is in pieces too.
jimnielsen
04-12-07, 09:06
Well I waited 80 days for the racing clutch from OMP - but it hasn't happened. So I have had to buy a standard one! Now I am having a bit of a problem getting the gearbox bolted back up to the engine cant seem to get it to slide right in - - any tips or ideas??
JimN
How have you centred the clutch plate?
Bad luck about the OMP - any reason?
cuore_sportivo_155
04-12-07, 16:55
Well I waited 80 days for the racing clutch from OMP - but it hasn't happened. So I have had to buy a standard one! Now I am having a bit of a problem getting the gearbox bolted back up to the engine cant seem to get it to slide right in - - any tips or ideas??
JimN
can you get someone to help you? let them move the crankshat a bit to help the splines align... also check if the clutchplate is well centered...
jimnielsen
09-12-07, 09:52
Well I have the clutch in now.... i didn't have the clutch plate aligned properly... anyway. I have read the "sticky" on gearbox oil, and I have 2 questions...
1. do you really use the dipstick hole to put in the new oil?? Its too small!
2. does it say in the owners manual the actual required amount of gear box oil ( in liters)?
3. does anyone have any recommendation on the exact specific gearbox oil to use - manufacture and product names please???
thanks, JimN..
I may even get this thing working this week! I Cant believe how difficult it is to put the starter motor back in!
1. do you really use the dipstick hole to put in the new oil?? Its too small!
Yes :biggrin:
I used a funnel.
...and you asked three questions ;)
wrinx
2. does it say in the owners manual the actual required amount of gear box oil ( in liters)?
4L - that fills the gearbox and the centre diff.
1.4 - rear diff
3. does anyone have any recommendation on the exact specific gearbox oil to use - manufacture and product names please???
From the manual:
Gearbox and Centre Differential:
Specified Classification:
API GL-4
Recommended:
Tutela ZC 80/S
Rear Differential
Specified Classification:
API GL-5
SAE 8W/90
Recommended:
Tutela W90/M-DA
I would just use any well known brand that meets the requirements - can't go far wrong :)
I may even get this thing working this week! I Cant believe how difficult it is to put the starter motor back in!
'ringman is the expert on doing this, learnt when his motor failed a couple of times :tapedshut:
cuore_sportivo_155
09-12-07, 16:00
you might as well put a GL-5 in the gearbox, iof it's the correct viscosity.... superior characteristics...
jimnielsen
10-12-07, 08:41
Just a summary about changing the 155 Q4 clutch on a garage floor.
Yes, it can be done. it took me a LONG time to get the gearbox out by myself, as I had no idea about how to do it.
With a skilled helper (also with no 155 specific knowledge) we put the clutch in, gearbox on and did the 1000 other little things that need doing to reassemble the car in about 8 hours.
I think I could do the job with a helper now in a weekend - but there'd be no time for beers.
Also, as an aside, I used a clutch for a Lancia Delta EVO II. The clutch plate is about 5mm bigger in diameter.
JimN
cuore_sportivo_155
11-12-07, 00:15
glad to see it's sorted :) did you drive it now? i know you're not supposed to but....
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