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axaQ4
06-07-07, 21:40
Hi!


I have a certain problem with my Q4 :cry: When i step on the throttle hard the car feels like the ignition is being cut(the car quit pulling for a sec) and there are "bangs"from the exhaust.It's very disturbing becouse i cant enjoy the car at its best.The most cut and bangs happens in 3. 4. and 5. gear thats the tricky part....i guess if the cables were bad this would happen in all gear....am i wrong?

I've already changed the igniton coils(or something like that...those 2 things
on which the spark plug cables are attached on....i'm not sure if coils is the right english term so i rather wrote a description :) )

My next step is to change the spark plug cables i guess....

Steve Webb
06-07-07, 22:16
Hi Axa, yep 'coil pack' is the correct term for the bits you replaced. As for your problem, are you running a non standard turbo or have you modified the engine much. Also which spark plugs are you using and when did you last change them?
And, does this problem happen at all revs or just at a certain point 2500-3000rpm?

I had a similar problem after having a hybrid turbo & manifold fitted. Standard spark plugs were not up to the job when the turbo came on boost. Giving the mis-fire type symptom that you discribe.
Also have you checked your fuel pressure recently? Running very lean could cause this problem.
Or if you have a split in the hose going to the MAP sensor, engine making boost, but the ECU seeing a reduced boost level and not proviing enough fuel.

Steve

axaQ4
06-07-07, 22:27
Hi!


I have the original T3 turbo.The mods i have are forged pistons, camshafts(fiat tipo 16v),polished exhaust canals,metal head gasket,hormann chip(around 240bhp) and a sport filter :).I have also raised fuel pressure according to the chip.
This happens only when i step harder on th throttle from low rpms. Mostly in the 3. 4. or 5. gear.the funny parts is that i can step on the gas in the 1. gear and the car goeas fine.


Where can i find the map sensor?

155'Ringman
06-07-07, 22:53
Could be that the increased fuel pressure is giving you an over rich mixture causing the backfires.

Steve Webb
07-07-07, 06:36
Here is where the Map sensor is. The connections come into it from underneath. Abit fiddly to get at, but worth checking that all the hoses are in order.

http://www.berlinasportivo.com/forumpics/mapsensor.jpg

The reason why you might not get the problem in 1st and 2nd gear is that the ECU is programed to restrict boost in these gears. I'm not sure but I think the overboost function is disabled in these gears.

If the car was overfueling then I'd expect to see your problem in all gears. But if the car is underfueling for whatever reason, then it would be worst in 3rd/4th/5th because of the increased boost.

One question, did this problem happen after you had something done to the car, or did it just start happening one day?

Also you might want to remove a sparkplug or 2 to check on their condition.

Steve

axaQ42
07-07-07, 15:02
Hi!

I've checked the map sensor tubes and are all fine.But i tested it this morning
and i noticed that the ignition cuts when the boost goes over 1.25 bar....so this means that the computer cuts it.Look like the hormann chip doesnt handle this.I thnik this is my answer(i also got an advice from wolf66).

Steve i very much appreciate your help and thanks for your advices.I sincerly hope this is the cause of my problem. :)

Wolf66
10-07-07, 22:51
The reason why you might not get the problem in 1st and 2nd gear is that the ECU is programed to restrict boost in these gears. I'm not sure but I think the overboost function is disabled in these gears.

Steve

ECU does not restrict boost in 1st and 2nd gear. Turbo can't produce such high boost in these two gears, because it has no time for that. ECU controls boost only for certain RPM and load/TPS angle.

Steve Webb
11-07-07, 11:42
The reason why you might not get the problem in 1st and 2nd gear is that the ECU is programed to restrict boost in these gears. I'm not sure but I think the overboost function is disabled in these gears.

Steve

ECU does not restrict boost in 1st and 2nd gear. Turbo can't produce such high boost in these two gears, because it has no time for that. ECU controls boost only for certain RPM and load/TPS angle.

Sorry, I was just quoting what various 'grale specialists had told me in the past. But it does make sense that it doesn't control boost in 1st & 2nd as there is no way for the ECU to know which gear you are in.

How long does a standard turbo take to fully spool up then? Surely it can't be longer than a couple of seconds?

Steve

TangoQ4
11-07-07, 13:00
I've had the exact same problem.

I have the std Garret T3 and K&N sport filter. The symptoms started all of a sudden. At first, only in 3rd, 4th and 5th gears, but then it began to occur also in 2nd. I changed the spark plugs and seemed to go away for a little while, but then it started again. also checked fuel pressure coming from the pump and changed the fuel filter, but nothing changed...

Now, after some time having this problem and being unable to solve it, I found that the dump valve isn't working anymore (didn't have the time to inspect it yet, but I don't hear the tipical "ppssshhhh" when releasing the pedal) and turbo pressure has apparently decreased quite a lot (wasn't able to measure this either, but it's notorius how it doesn't push you back anymore after going over 3000 rpm's...

Could this lack of pressure be due to the broken dump valve??

Stuntz
11-07-07, 13:04
CPU can know in wich gear you are in from the RPM and how fast you are traveling. But i dont know if this is the case in Q4 CPU. Will dig my head in this CPU during the winter.

Wolf66
11-07-07, 13:11
How long does a standard turbo take to fully spool up then? Surely it can't be longer than a couple of seconds?

Steve

If you disconnect the hose from the wastegate actuator, then boost will raise over 1 bar in 1st and 2nd gear, but it can't with ECU control, because it doesn't allow higher pressures in higher RPM, which is why you see only 0.7-0.8 bar boost in 1st and 2nd gear, because there is no time to raise the boost at 4000 rpm in 1st and 2nd.

Wolf66
11-07-07, 13:17
CPU can know in wich gear you are in from the RPM and how fast you are traveling. But i dont know if this is the case in Q4 CPU. Will dig my head in this CPU during the winter.


There is no map related to speed/rpm and speed sensor from gearbox is connected directly to speedometer, so ECU in Q4 can't calculate the speed. Also BOSCH ABS system in Q4 is independent of ECU and it can't calculate the speed from ABS sensors either.
Boost is controled only by RPM and load/TPS angle.

Stuntz
11-07-07, 13:21
Then th joke is in what you are trying to tell us all the time :) 1. and 2. are simply to short for the boost to grow. Ty


P.S. Hvala stari si kle pustu ves znanje.
Pridemo pogledat novga pov×a en dan :twisted:

Steve Webb
11-07-07, 16:12
CPU can know in wich gear you are in from the RPM and how fast you are traveling. But i dont know if this is the case in Q4 CPU. Will dig my head in this CPU during the winter.


There is no map related to speed/rpm and speed sensor from gearbox is connected directly to speedometer, so ECU in Q4 can't calculate the speed. Also BOSCH ABS system in Q4 is independent of ECU and it can't calculate the speed from ABS sensors either.
Boost is controled only by RPM and load/TPS angle.

What about using the accelerometers from the suspension ECU, injector duty cycle, and rate of change of RPM?

(just having a laugh now :wink: )

Wolf66
11-07-07, 16:30
Accelerometers from suspension ECU are not connected to injection ECU and they are only measuring transversal and vertical forces, not longitudinal. Suspension ECU gets the information of speed from ABS sensors.

The information, that ECU limits boost in 1st and 2nd gear came from Integrale forum and was based on information on HF Alex site, but there was mistake with translation from Italian. By the picture of boost map, which show boost map (with 4 curves) was text wrongly interpreted as curves for boost in different gears. This 4 curves are the curves for different load/TPS angle.

http://www.wolf66.slyip.com/boostx.jpg


http://www.wolf66.slyip.com/boostgraph.jpg

axaQ42
12-07-07, 06:25
I've had the exact same problem.

I have the std Garret T3 and K&N sport filter. The symptoms started all of a sudden. At first, only in 3rd, 4th and 5th gears, but then it began to occur also in 2nd. I changed the spark plugs and seemed to go away for a little while, but then it started again. also checked fuel pressure coming from the pump and changed the fuel filter, but nothing changed...

Now, after some time having this problem and being unable to solve it, I found that the dump valve isn't working anymore (didn't have the time to inspect it yet, but I don't hear the tipical "ppssshhhh" when releasing the pedal) and turbo pressure has apparently decreased quite a lot (wasn't able to measure this either, but it's notorius how it doesn't push you back anymore after going over 3000 rpm's...

Could this lack of pressure be due to the broken dump valve??

I guess lack of pressure could happen if the dump valve remains "open".

Do you have the standard Chip or custom?

If your car start to "yerk" in all gears then i guess the problem is in the igniton...have you thought to change the igniton coils?

I had a similar problem with the ex Q4(the car wouldnt run good in any gear...) and when i gave up on everything i tried to correct the idle speed(that bolt on the throttlle body) and when i corrected it(850+-30 rpm) the car started to run smoothly in any gear :shock:


Now on the white on the problem starts to happen over 1.3 bar of boost....if i floor it the car runs and pulls normally until the boost gauge hits 1.3 and then the rumble begins :) If i floor the 1.gear the car goes completly normal also.

SSQ4
12-07-07, 11:38
Mine is cutting in 1st. 2nd. and 3rd. havent tried it in fourth or fift tough:

SS

TangoQ4
12-07-07, 13:18
I'll have to check out the dump valve then... I'm almost certain that this sudden lack of pressure is due to the valve being broken, but wanted to confirm this with you guys, until I had the time to inspect it (my main concern was that the turbo could be broken :cry: )

Another thing I realized just yesterday, is that when releasing the pedal, you can hear some sort of "air pressure release" sound through the air filter (K&N conical filter), but through the dump valve... nothing at all.

Any clue? :?:

AlfaJack
12-07-07, 13:42
I'll have to check out the dump valve then... I'm almost certain that this sudden lack of pressure is due to the valve being broken, but wanted to confirm this with you guys, until I had the time to inspect it (my main concern was that the turbo could be broken :cry: )

Another thing I realized just yesterday, is that when releasing the pedal, you can hear some sort of "air pressure release" sound through the air filter (K&N conical filter), but through the dump valve... nothing at all.

Any clue? :?:

Dump valve sounds like its stuck - if its the standard one then this is quite possible as it can disintegrate...

dutchy
12-07-07, 18:48
You said that you have checked the hoses on the map sensor.
But dit you check them if they where fully open on the inside?
My Q4 has a troublesome time behind it because there was some sludge buildup in the map hose, resulting in wrong pressure readings.
After replacing the hose, no more troubles.

Got this solution from squadra by the way.

greetings

Ruud

axaQ42
13-07-07, 05:48
You said that you have checked the hoses on the map sensor.
But dit you check them if they where fully open on the inside?
My Q4 has a troublesome time behind it because there was some sludge buildup in the map hose, resulting in wrong pressure readings.
After replacing the hose, no more troubles.

Got this solution from squadra by the way.

greetings

Ruud

Hmm i really didnt check it this closely....i guess i have to do it again :)
Bu the MS tube is very hard to access as i remember :?

SSQ4
13-07-07, 07:31
What is the easyest way to change the hose from the inntake manifold to the mapsensor?
Do we have to take of the manifold, and if so, how do one get those rubber hoses on each intake tube to fit back on...
It looks almost impossible to get at these things without taking out the engine?

SS

AlfaJack
13-07-07, 08:45
What is the easyest way to change the hose from the inntake manifold to the mapsensor?
Do we have to take of the manifold, and if so, how do one get those rubber hoses on each intake tube to fit back on...
It looks almost impossible to get at these things without taking out the engine?

SS

Its very difficult and tight but can be done in place - remove the two bolts that connects the head to the inlet manifold and get someone with a big screwdriver to gently lever the manifold apart from the head - not a lot, but just enough to get two small fingers in to connect the pipe - DONT let the screwdriver slip - it will hurt!

I know how to do this because the last mechanic to work on my car left this pipe off :x :x :x The car ran absolutely terribly!

SSQ4
13-07-07, 12:12
OK! i tried to losen those two bolts but the inntake manifold was stuck and i was afraid to break the aluminium so i gave up... but i guess i have to try again! Thanks :)

AlfaJack
13-07-07, 12:15
OK! i tried to losen those two bolts but the inntake manifold was stuck and i was afraid to break the aluminium so i gave up... but i guess i have to try again! Thanks :)

Hmm, there should be some little flex from the rubber connection pipes that connect the manifold to the head :?

SSQ4
13-07-07, 12:27
I will give it a go in the weekend. Maybe it could be that this is the problem and that the pierburgvalve is ok!? i cross my fingers :)

dutchy
13-07-07, 19:02
I changed the hose by removing the map sensor.
If you remove (i believe 2 bolts) the bracket from the relay assembly, the map sensor will come off to.
See also section 5 of the Q4 ignition manual.

It's a bit fiddeling to get the hose connected to the manifold, but it doesn't have to be removed.

Good luck

Ruud

Jan
14-03-10, 19:33
Hi!


I have a certain problem with my Q4 :cry: When i step on the throttle hard the car feels like the ignition is being cut(the car quit pulling for a sec) and there are "bangs"from the exhaust.It's very disturbing becouse i cant enjoy the car at its best.The most cut and bangs happens in 3. 4. and 5. gear thats the tricky part....i guess if the cables were bad this would happen in all gear....am i wrong?

I've already changed the igniton coils(or something like that...those 2 things
on which the spark plug cables are attached on....i'm not sure if coils is the right english term so i rather wrote a description :) )

My next step is to change the spark plug cables i guess....

I have this problem too, cutting ignition in higher gears.
it appeared when i changed the chip
spark cables are new, because i had the problem earlier
with the new cables no problems untill i changed the chip
spark plugs are new.
does anybody now what it can be, maybe coil packs who cracked?
which spark do i need with chip and other manifold en loose exhaust to the back?

Jan
16-03-10, 20:36
anybody with an answer, ignition cuts are very anoying!

(don't now if anoying is allright?)

Brul(tm)
17-03-10, 05:29
anybody with an answer


I have this problem too, cutting ignition in higher gears. it appeared when i changed the chip

I think you have given your own anwser?
Who made the chip you mounted in the ECU?
I know that removing all kat's and silencers except the back box from the exhaust can lead to problems you describe. In this case the solutions was reprogramming the ECU/chip on a rolling road.

First thing to check, is putting back your original chip and see what happens.

I had problems wuth excessive boost problems after replacing the turbo. In my case the waste gate didn't open. Is the pierburg correctly connected? Could also lead to boost problems.

Replacing the chip was the only service you did?

Regards,
Marc

AlfaJack
17-03-10, 08:36
Jan, Are you hitting 1.5 bar?

Jan
17-03-10, 16:09
it's a madeno chip, it is not a problem with boost.
not hitting 1,5 bar
maybe wrong spark plugs or cracked coil packs