original camshaft info ?

[Jarkko]

does anyone have ? I m thinking to chance some parts on my engine and I think I should replace the original ones, to have all the power out of my turbo :twisted: . what camshafts would be good ?

[arjunior45]

I'm going to use Fiat Tipo 16v 2.0lt inlet cam {part No 7697190}, lift 10.150mm as an inlet cam and replace the original inlet cam to the exhaust.

This combination is a low {not quite} bugget mod - need of vernier cam pulleys in order to have the proper overlap, but it works well with Evocars "fastroad" chip for Q4. No underfueling areas - checked with wide band oxygen sensor, according to a friend of mine - and faster "revs pick up".

Regards

Nick

[Jarkko]

what kind of mods does the original inlet cam need.. when you put it to exhaust ... :roll:

[Juan AR155Q4]

None, just put it in the exhaust place. As Nick said, you´ll need an adjustable pulley for tunning.
Like this:
http://www.esslingeracing.com/merchant2/graphics/00000001/E2188-STAR-CAM-PULLEY.jpg

[arjunior45]

yes, this is a very good vernier pulley!

Nick

[Juan AR155Q4]

Nick (or another), I´m planning using the Tipo´s inlet camshaft. What can you tell me about this? Does really makes a change in the engine? Worth it? I have lots of questions.

I´ve checked on eper and found another parts numbers:

7697190 -> Tipo Sport 16v ie (88-93)

7625939 -> Tipo Sport 16v ie (88-93)

7727838 -> Tipo MQ93 1750-2000 (93-95)
2000 16v
2000 16v Brasil

I know there are some mods between 3-door and 5-door´s Tipo. Something like 5hp. Do they have the sames camshafts? I know they have different throttle body.

[Steve Webb]

I'm pretty sure its the 5 door camshaft you need to use, as yes the 3 and 5 door Tipo's use different cam's.

[Juan AR155Q4]

the 3 and 5 door Tipo's use different cam's.


Sure on that? I heard that, but couldn´t find it anywhere.

I suppose that´s why I founded this on eper:


7697190 -> Tipo Sport 16v ie (88-93)

7625939 -> Tipo Sport 16v ie (88-93)


But, wich one is for the 5-door?
Has someone any specs of any of this camshaft? (lift, duration, etc.)

[Steve Webb]

I've never directly compared the specs on the 3 and 5 door tipos, but I am 95% certain that they are different. From what I remember the 5 door camshaft has slightly more lift. But don't quote me on that, and sorry I don't have lift/duration specs for the cams.

Steve

[arjunior45]

Dear Juan,

according to the info I have so far (mostly from the Evoforum), for the Tipo 16V 2,0 litre - 5 doors inlet cam, {see: http://forums.delphiforums.com/evoforum/messages/?msg=16044.30 }, the inlet cam's part number is 7697190 (as verified from the local dealer too). He also told me that the difference between the 3 and the 5 doors FIAT Tipo concerning the bhp, is due to different maps that were used.

At the Evoforum they say:
- "The 16V inlet {like the original Q4 inlet cam} cam indeed lifts 8.6 mm. The timing as supplied by Lancia is indeed 8 / 35.

This lift quoted is with zero valve clearance, the timing with 0.8mm valve clearance.

Actual figures with 0.35mm valve clearance are 8.3 mm lift and 38/65 timing which totals in 283 degrees duration.

The tipo cam with the same vlave clearance of 0.35mm measures 9.77 mm lift and 35/80 timing which totals in 290 degrees duration.

The tipo cam has much higher lift and more aggressive valve acceleration coupled with a slightly longer duration than the OE integrale cam. This gives you more power higher up in the rev range whilst at the same time losing some bottom performance. Peak power is also achieved about 500-600rpm higher up in the rev range.

As listed in the faq you can indeed use the grale inlet cam as an exhaust cam. Works very well but is quite an aggressive approach which creates lots of overlap.

Colombo and Bariani use a different approach with high lift, high valve acceleration coupled with short duration (overlap is only about 20-25 degrees compared to 67 as standard) to produce excellent results throughout the rev range from low down to high up!!!

As a last comment, whatever you do with cams it's important that you understand cam theory and accompanied engine behaviour before chosing alternative cams.....after fitting the cams of your choice have the car mapped properly!

Hope this helps"

They also say:

- "I was using Tipo inlet cam and the original inlet cam on the exhaust side.It is the best low buck mod ever :)Yes,there was some slight overlap problems:a little bit rough idle and a bit slower pickup.But then we installed vernier pulleys adn fine tuned'em.The idle improved a lot and a pickup became faster.I was using it Barry's chip and the fueling was perfect(checked it with wideband O2 sensor).Please note my car was a '93 Alfa 155 Q4.But everybody should try this mod,it is amazing.And it was holding the boost better in the higher rev range."

and

- "If you fit a cam only on the inlet side,you won't loose too much from the low down performance(maybe 300rpm).I don't remember properly,but my mechanic adjusted my cams to gain a similar overlap as with the original cams.We used the old trial and error method:he adjusted the cams a bit,then we made a test run and so on.But if you want low end torque and quick pick up,you need higher CR and a quick spooling turbo."

Hope all the above will help you

The only Fiat Tipo inletcam that can be used in the

[arjunior45]

The only Fiat Tipo inlet cam that can be used in the Q4, is the one with lift 10,150 mm and there is no other 16V Fiat Tipo inlet cam with such a lift.

Cheers

Nick

[Juan AR155Q4]

Great Nick, I knew you where the man to ask to.

So, the 3-door and 5-door have differentes camshaft and different mapping. The 5-door camshaft is the one with 10,5mm of lift and part number 7697190. This only change 6bhp in Tipos?

In the alfa, what would be the timing of both camshafts? Wich one is the "Barry´s map" that it´s quoted in the EVO forum?

Have you done this swap? What´s your experience? Should I go for it?

[arjunior45]

Dear Juan,
yes, the cam is the one with part number 7697190 from the 5-doors Tipo and with lift 10.150 mm. I believe {though not 100% sure} it is the same to 3-doors and 5-doors. The different bhp {horse power} is just due to the different maps in the two models {3-door and 5-door}. Something like the Q4 with chip coded 101.03 {'92-'93} with 190 bhp and chip codec 101.04 {'93-'95} with 186 bhp.
Any way, there is only one type with lift 10.150 mm {not 10.5 mm as you wrote before} for Tipo 16valves 2000 c.c.

You can use this cam as inlet cam to our Q4 using the original cam pulley which gives 0-45 degrees or with just 1 {one} teeth in retard {5-50 degrees} with better results.
As for the original {Q4's} inlet cam, you can use it as exhaust cam using a vernier pulley and phasing the cam in advance so that to have less overlap and very close to the original overlap{ with the original inlet and outlet cam}. Unfortunately I have not tested yet this combination of cams in our Q4 as there are certain things that I must do in the car before.
But certainly these are the cams I'm going to use!

As for the "Barry's map" is the Evocars "fastroad" H4B chip {1.2 bar boost - he was advertizing this chip as a 1.4 bar boost chip but the 1.4 bar was not real}.
I'm going to test this chip - with the cams - later in autumn and then I could tell you my impressions.

Cheers

Nick

p.s.
I've send you a mail.

[Juan AR155Q4]

Great info your sharing Nick!!!

A friend has a 3-door Fiat Tipo, we´ll have to measure and realice if the same camshaft is used in both models.


You can use this cam as inlet cam to our Q4 using the original cam pulley which gives 0-45 degrees or with just 1 {one} teeth in retard {5-50 degrees} with better results.
As for the original {Q4's} inlet cam, you can use it as exhaust cam using a vernier pulley and phasing the cam in advance so that to have less overlap and very close to the original overlap{ with the original inlet and outlet cam}.

There´s something I dont undrestand here, if the original is 0-45 and you put the other 5-50, then you are advancing the camshaft 5° instead of retarding (opens 5°BTDC). Am I right?


I'm going to test this chip - with the cams - later in autumn and then I could tell you my impressions.

I´ll wait for your experience, in the meantime I´ll be looking for the Tipo´s camshaft. Once I get this, I´ll start the development.

[arjunior45]

to be precise, the Tipo cam should be phased 4 degress in retard than the "original" point. 4 degrees is just 1 teeth in the original cam-pulley.

Nick

[Jarkko]

thanks all the info. well see what happens :wink:

[Juan AR155Q4]

Well, up with this thread.

I have measure a Fiat Tipo`s inlet and exhaust cams. It`s 9,5mm for both cams. Could measure the diagram (they are mounted in the car). So, both have the same lift and the same base circle.
I`m buying one of this and will see what difference it makes.

Ps: It`s a 3-door Tipo 2.0i.e. (16 valve)

[Wolf66]

I use tipo cam as inlet and OEM inlet as exhaust. You need to make the groove in the OEM inlet cam for the camshaft position sensor.

With this setup car goes significantly faster from 6000 to 7000 RPM.

[Juan AR155Q4]

You didn`t measure the Tipo`s lift?

[155-tbo]

UP, UP and UP :D

Where the hell are you going to get this kind of Tipo´s inletcams? I´m looking and looking, but no result! I called also to Finnish Alfa-Romeo and Fiat service and they told me that 400 euros and I can only get Tipo´s inletcam. No thanks! :shock:

Tell me if you know where to get (used,new) inletcam and I can sleep my nights better :wink:

Here in Finland Tipo´s 16 valve model is very rare, so we don´t have any used parts. If you know shops or usedparts shop in Germany or other Europein union, let me know.

Thank you,
155-tbo

[Jarkko]

up, up, up and UP anyone ???? :cry:

[Juan AR155Q4]

Well, I've paided the OEM Tipo's camshaft about u$s80. It's the same as Fiat Tempra 16v as they share the same engine.

[Jarkko]

are you sure ? with the same 7697190 part number ?

[djsly]

I think they are all the same from 2.0 16v engine (tipo, croma, tempra,alfa,...).

Here in Slovenia you can get whole engine (tipo 2.0 16v) for 100€. And there are planty of them on market...

[Steve Webb]

I was always under the impression that the cam's for the Tipo 2.0L 16v 3 door and 5 door were different. And it was the 3 door camshaft to go for.

[arjunior45]

the cam to go for is the one with lift 10.150mm and part number 7697190 {original FIAT part number}! Don't know if the 3-doors mount this one {5-doors for sure}.
Just measure the lift and will be no problem.

Cheers

Nick

[T M Oren]

None, just put it in the exhaust place. As Nick said, you´ll need an adjustable pulley for tunning.
Like this:
http://www.esslingeracing.com/merchant2/graphics/00000001/E2188-STAR-CAM-PULLEY.jpg
Were do you get these weels?

[T M Oren]

None, just put it in the exhaust place. As Nick said, you´ll need an adjustable pulley for tunning.
Like this:
http://www.esslingeracing.com/merchant2/graphics/00000001/E2188-STAR-CAM-PULLEY.jpg

[T M Oren]

None, just put it in the exhaust place. As Nick said, you´ll need an adjustable pulley for tunning.
Like this:
http://www.esslingeracing.com/merchant2/graphics/00000001/E2188-STAR-CAM-PULLEY.jpg

[T M Oren]

Ups............
Were do you get adjustable pulleys?

[Juan AR155Q4]

Ups............
Were do you get adjustable pulleys?

Couldn´t found it yet

[wrinx]

http://www.esslingerengineering.com/catalog/page01.pdf

http://www.esslingerengineering.com

...but they only seem to sell Ford parts...

wrinx