400 hp Alfa Romeo 155 Q4'

[g.kinazoglu]

The Lancia delta integrale has a lot of over 400 hp. Why is there no q4 on 300hp? What is the difference.

[g.kinazoglu]

The 380hp ready eprom chip for Sierra Rs Cosworth is sold on ebay. There is no reason for our 155 Q4. What is the difference.
I can't see it, I can't find it.

[g.kinazoglu]

For my 155 Q4 I could find the highest powered ready eprom chip 295hp.
Do you have a more powerful ready eprom chip for sale?

[wrinx]

295bhp without any other modifications? Do you have a link to this chip?

wrinx

[g.kinazoglu]

http://www.smchiptuning.com/32/alfa-romeo-155-2.0-turbo-q4-190?lang=en

[kunev]

First there was Q4s with more than 300hp and should be some now also I guess... You can find some in old threads on here, but unfortunately old garage feature of the forum with photos and specs is now gone and most of the pictures on old threads probably are not available anymore...
Yes, for sure there is much more powerful Integrales than Q4s and in my opinion the reason lies on the same things which made one car (Integrale) much more popular than other (Q4) - produced numbers, more special design and famous racing heritage association. There is much less Q4 produced (because wasn't high demand probably) and the model look to me as always been in shadow and not well known even when new. Also Q4 look much like a normal car unlike Integrale especially in Evo form, which add to its inconspicuously. They have to made it a little more distinguishable in my opinion... The Q4 is homologation special for racing car also, which was very successful and that is GTA, but that fact is like a secret and also GTA short lived. Will stop here as this is another topic :) .
Mechanically I don't see why to not be able to achieve similar power as main components are similar - engine, transmission and drivetrain. Integrales are lighter so probably a little bit less load on components.
Do nоt fully believe on advertised power figures from sources around internet, not everything, which you read is true. For off the shelf chip my approach is to look at what offer reputable companies specialized in particular makes. For example Squadra Tuning is specialized in ECU tuning of italian cars from many years and is well known with good feedback. I see in their site to offer 235hp and 345Nm with requirement to be used with 98RON fuel and that sound correct to me for standard car -> link (https://www.squadra-tuning.nl/chiptuning/alfa-romeo/alfa-classico/155-q4/)
295hp is not possible on that model without modifications and I don't mean only bigger exhaust and air filter.
For comparison with Integrales of modified chips have to be mentioned that even the smallest turbo used in Integrale in Evo II and which is similar to the one used on Q4 (TB0367) is not exactly the same and have bigger power potential from what I have read (bigger compressor wheel and turbine housing). Integrale 16V and Evo I use bigger turbo and on 8V is bigger than these.
From all versions of Sierra and Escort Cosworth only the smallest turbo used on latest Escort Cosworth (T25) have power potential around Q4 turbo, but from looking that it make close to 300 it maybe flow more. All others are bigger and biggest used on Escort Cosworth T3/T04 with 0.63A/R can make 400hp+.
So Q4 don't have big power potential in standard form with standard turbo in the first place.
A lot of modifications require custom ECU tuning. On www.lanciahf.eu site there is some stage chips.

[Steve Webb]

Fully agree with you, all sorts of reasons conspire to mean that there are far fewer Q4's making 300bhp + but given that the engine block\head is the same as the Integrale (apart from some tiny differences) the main difference is that the owners haven't completed the work to make them produce the power.
As the Intergrale was a true competition mackine more competition parts filtered down for it.

As for the old garage, I do apologise that its no longer available, the developer of the fearture (paid for I might add) has gone out of business and there was no way to port the old garage over to the updated version of the forum. A shame, but hey thats life.
That being said, there is the new garage feature, so feel free to add your car.

Oh and a straight swap chip that gives a solid 50% more power and torque, I highly doubt it, or if did really give those power gains, it wouldn't last very long before the engine grenaded!!


First there was Q4s with more than 300hp and should be some now also I guess... You can find some in old threads in here, but unfortunately old garage feature of the forum with photos and specs is now gone and most of the pictures on old threads probably are not available anymore...
Yes, for sure there is much more powerful Integrales than Q4s and in my opinion the reason lies on the same things which made one car (Integrale) much more popular than other (Q4) - produced numbers, more special design and famous racing heritage association. There is much less Q4 produced (because wasn't high demand probably) and the model look to me as always been in shadow and not well known even when new. Also Q4 look much like a normal car unlike Integrale especially in Evo form, which add to its inconspicuously. They have to made it a little more distinguishable in my opinion... The Q4 is homologation special for racing car also, which was very successful and that is GTA, but that fact is like a secret and also GTA short lived. Will stop here as this is another topic :) .
Mechanically I don't see why to not be able to achieve similar power as main components are similar - engine, transmission and drivetrain. Integrales are lighter so probably a little bit less load on components.
Do nоt fully believe on advertised power figures from sources around internet, not everything, which you read is true. For off the shelf chip my approach is to look at what offer reputable companies specialized in particular makes. For example Squadra Tuning is specialized in ECU tuning of italian cars from many years and is well known with good feedback. I see in their site to offer 235hp and 345Nm with requirement to be used with 98RON fuel and that sound correct to me for standard car -> link (https://www.squadra-tuning.nl/chiptuning/alfa-romeo/alfa-classico/155-q4/)
295hp is not possible on that model without modifications and I don't mean only bigger exhaust and air filter.
For comparison with Integrales of modified chips have to be mentioned that even the smallest turbo used in Integrale in Evo II and which is similar to the one used on Q4 (TB0367) is not exactly the same and have bigger power potential from what I have read (bigger compressor wheel and turbine housing). Integrale 16V and Evo I use bigger turbo and on 8V is bigger than these.
From all versions of Sierra and Escort Cosworth only the smallest turbo used on latest Escort Cosworth (T25) have power potential around Q4 turbo, but from looking that it make close to 300 it maybe flow more. All others are bigger and biggest used on Escort Cosworth T3/T04 with 0.63A/R can make 400hp+.
So Q4 don't have big power potential in standard form with standard turbo in the first place.
A lot of modifications require custom ECU tuning. On www.lanciahf.eu site there is some stage chips.

[g.kinazoglu]

You two are right. Thank You very much.

[Steve Webb]

No problem,

Working on a Q4 always seems to be more effort than other cars, but then its all worth it when you get behind the wheel.

[g.kinazoglu]

Yes, it's worth everything.

[kunev]

As Steve mentioned not much readily available tuning parts or kits are offered for the model except for the engine (which is common with Integrale) probably because of the rarity and unpopularity of the model. So have to be looked for custom order parts, fabrications and figuring out some things at different stages as don't have much projects and will be faced unknowns, which will make the project more difficult.
Also generally for some serious projects are necessary people, which are first big fans of the model and second to be ready to spent a lot of money on the car, so to be wealthy enough at some sort to have enough spare money and Integrale's owners are more wealthy than Q4 ones :D. 300hp can be achieved without so much money, but for more serious projects a lot of $ is needed ...

[wrinx]

The answer is in the small print. It's actually a remap, not an off the shelf chip, but also...

" This kind of tuning requests perfect condition of the engine and turbo, and the SM power isn't only classical remap, it provides the change of mechanical engine parts, depends of a model. With some models it's only sport filter, with others it's suction, exhaust and there are the models who request to set an another turbine, nozzle, inector, intercooler."

Probably need another turbo!

wrinx

[#84]

Interesting thread. Back in the days well recognized Evocars (Late Barry Waterhouse), offered 250 hp in the Q4 and 260 hp in the Integrale Evo II. I mounted their chip and had to change fuel pressure regulator to get sufficient fuel supply, as per their instructions. As said in previous posts, from that power level and to higher power figures you have to do something with the turbocharger, modify our change it. At around 325 hp / 430 Nm you reach the limit for the injectors @ 3,5 bar base pressure as well as the MAP sensor and it gets complicated to change all maps to fit the high pressure MAP sensor, so that is where I set the limit. Besides that you soon also have to change head gasket and head bolts. And. At 400 Nm the clutch start to slip. I fitted a larger fuel pump, but do not remember if that was already at the 250 hp level, or at the next step.

[Steve Webb]

That Q4 chip was written on my car when it was sat on a rolling road, at the end of the day it made 270bhp, but then again my car wasn't standard, it was running 1.35 bar as well.

It was also written with the standard fuel pressure regulator, which coupled with the standard injectors, became the limiting factor when making power.

[#84]

Steve, are you sure they didn't turn up the fuel pressure? I changed to a Evo II regulator, which looks exactly the same, but with 0,5 (3) bar higher setting, which in turn could be turned up another half a bar to 3,5. Well, it was some years ago ...

[Steve Webb]

Pretty sure, I've just changed over to a new FPR (Shiney Deatsch one - Looks good but is a pig to get to fit in the space.) so was paranoid about getting it setup correctly, I've had an electronic gauge and analogue screw in gauge to check, and the fuel pressure was 2.5 bar.
With the new FPR I can increase it nice and easily, which I will no doubt do when I get a few other things put right on the car, new exhaust with additional wide band afr sensor bung for one.

[kunev]

A particular chip have to be written for particular injectors capacity and base fuel regulator pressure, otherwise fuel delivery will not be correct.

[#84]

Correct!

[Steve Webb]

A particular chip have to be written for particular injectors capacity and base fuel regulator pressure, otherwise fuel delivery will not be correct.

Thats true, however to think that your injectors are delivering fuel in exactly the same way they were when they were new, or that your fuel pressure regulator is behaving the same way now as when it was new is plain crazy.
Sure to get the maximum power out or a partiucular setup, the chip will need to be written for the car at that period of time. But with a wideband AFM, changes can be made to the setup keeping things safe, until the chip can be rewritten.
And as we all know, changing the injectors on a Q4 is not the easiest of jobs, and no something that you want to do whilst waiting in line for a rolling road run.

[#84]

Actually I sent all mine to test & refurbishment while having the engines in pieces. They were not that off, but two of them needed some tweeking - don't ask me how

[Steve Webb]

You must have good fuel over there, do you use premium all the time?

As for Injector tweaking, never heard of that myself either, cleaning yes, modifying by removing caps, yes, but I'm not sure how you just tweak an injector.