alfa 164 Q4 gearbox on the 155 Q4

[peter holst]

will it fit?

saw a new box on the bay

[SteveNZ]

No as is. The bell housing will be different. You could possibly swap the lower casing for one from a Q4/Integrale/other.

[peter holst]

thanks steve

think the 164 box must be stronger than the 155 Q4

[SteveNZ]

I very much doubt it. The are the same gearbox type. There is no significant difference as far as I know.

[hf hpe]

there is huge difference
164 use GETRAG 6 speed gearbox
and viscomatic 4x4 system

[SteveNZ]

Really? Sorry my knowledge of 164's is very poor I must admit. The FWD versions have the same gearbox type though.

[peter holst]

I think a Getrag box is stronger - would have been nice if it could fit :)

[Steve Webb]

I would imagine the Getrag box from the 164 would be stronger as Getrag are a very well known gearbox manufacturer. I seem to remember lots of mad Rally Cross cars used to use Getrag boxes.

But for the effort that you would need to make it fit, you could make the standard gearbox stronger.

[corriedw]

Gearboxes for Uno turbo and Alfa TS engines have the same internals, I do not know which other Fiats/Lancias

Gearboxes for the 164 and Q4 share the same internals, the 156, GTV, Diesel versions and others have the 6th gear added but the rest is the same. Diesel bell housing on this box fit the 4 cylinders engines. 6 speed boxes are stronger due to bearing next to 6th gear where the 5th gear of the Q4/164 are unsupported. Frequent 5th gear low speed use on the high torque v6 Alfas can be problematic on 5 speed boxes.

Final drives are available and can be swapped in the same groups.

Is there a fwd Getrag box? Which box did the Integrale Competisione use? The BMW Getrag box I know is rwd and a favourite for high power rwd turbo set-ups.

[SteveNZ]

There are only 2 basic gearbox types to cover the whole Fiat/Alfa/Lancia range. A lot of parts are interchangeable over the years, and decades!

One gearbox started in the Fiat 128 and the other started in the Lancia Beta. Basically the 128 gearbox is for small or less powerful models and the Beta box was for larger cars or more powerful engines.

Coupe turbo / 155Q4 / Integrale / Croma / Thema / FWD V6 Alfa all have a gearbox evolved from the Beta

Uno / Tipo / Delta / Strada / 147 TS / Coupe n/a etc, even the TS Selespeeds all have a gearbox which evolved from the 128.

I'm currently fixing my Fiat Coupe turbo gearbox and the gear I need is identical to a Fiat Croma.

The Strada Abarth 130TC is said to have a ZF gearbox but its still the same Fiat 128 design with only some minor modifications to it. To call it a ZF gearbox is wrong or misleading at least.. It's still a Fiat gearbox, only modified.

It sounds like the Getrag box is the same deal. Still a Fiat gearbox, just modified.

[Steve Webb]

Well there is a 164 Q4 gearbox up for sale on eBay at the moment.

Looks pretty different to any other Alfa gearbox I've seen before, but then again I've never really taken that much notice of them.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/110419758082?item=110419758082&ViewItem=&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[SteveNZ]

Yes that's totally different!

[Steve Webb]

The 155 Q4 gearbox looks like a fwd gearbox with the rwd stuff bolted on, whereas the 164 Q4 gearbox looks to be a 4wd gearbox from the start.

Looking at the casing as well, the 164 gearbox looks a lot stronger and far less likely to flex.

[corriedw]

There are only 2 basic gearbox types to cover the whole Fiat/Alfa/Lancia range.

3 really, the 128/Uno, Uno turbo/Alfa 2ltr, Q4/Alfa v6 and the next size up is the Maserati box. The casings and some ratios differ, but the basic internals are the same. I never had a look at a 164 Q4. The Alfa 159 gearbox is not from the same family.

I used Uno turbo spares in a turbo Alfa 145 box because the Alfa bits were not available and a friend is running a long legged 147, with Uno turbo final drive. At a local mechanic, I have seen gears from a Alfa v6 box go into an Integrale box also because the Lancia parts were not available in SA. We also bought an 1800 Alfa final drive( the model never came out in SA) for a 145 trackday car, because the ratio is shorter.

[SteveNZ]

3 really, the 128/Uno, Uno turbo/Alfa 2ltr, Q4/Alfa v6 and the next size up is the Maserati box.

You could say that. But the "uno turbo/Alfa 2L" is just an evolution of the 128/strada gearbox even though the gearset is different. Some parts still interchange. There was of course an Uno turbo based on both of these gearboxes.

What is the Maserati box?

[corriedw]

If you look at the widths of the gears in the 3 boxes, you will understand what I mean. Al 3 are different as the engine torque becomes more. I broke 3 gearboxes with a turbo Alfa 2.0 TS engine every time the 4th gear broke. The gears in the Q4/v6 boxes are much stronger.

[Steve Webb]

I broke 3 gearboxes with a turbo Alfa 2.0 TS engine

You can't just tease us with that snippet. More details of the engine and car please. (i.e. stick it in the garage.)

[hf hpe]

155 Q4 gearbox is C503 type
156/147 and others 5 and 6 speed gearboxes are C530 type
the big difference is in bearings of first and second shaft
C503 uses ball bearings
C530 uses roller bearings

The c503 gearbox is much stronger
its have strength plate at he backs two bearings
the only problem is that there is no same plate on the front of two bearings
that is the reason to make this mod
http://scara73.it/motore/motor14_2.htm




the TS gearbox is C510 type and have different internals

[corriedw]

You can't just tease us with that snippet. More details of the engine and car please. (i.e. stick it in the garage.)

You can move the post as it is really off topic.

My first engine had 400cc injectors with a Dastec Unichip(piggyback) on the oe Motronic management. Injectors have to have a 15/6 ohm impedance or the Motronic will not pulse them. Variator was disconnected. I used std intake manifold. I melted pistons on two occasions (Once was my stupidity) Possibly because of the std non turbo manifold, the throttle is aimed straight into the intake runner of cylinder no 4 and due to the design the pressure at the back of the manifold can become higher than in other places?? TN (AlfaOwner) do not have problems with his conversions and the same goes for Henniev (AlfaOwner) with his beautiful 146 which is a daily commuter. I used a custom air/air and a water/air intercooler to stop detonation but it was over-kill. The cast iron down-pipe and exhaust was 65/63 mm. At 0.8 bar boost the engine delivered 267 whp with max torque at 5000 rpm.

My second turbo TS engine had 500cc, 2 ohm injectors and a Dictator stand alone management. Variator was disconnected. I made a large(125mm dia) s/s plenum for more constant pressure, with larger dia runners. I had 12 mm head studs made, it will solve all the pressure problems. I used flat BMW pistons 5mm below the top of sleeve. I used an custom air/air intercooler. The down-pipe was 84mm s/s and the exhaust 76mm with one silencer. At 0.75 bar boost the engine delivered 262 whp with max torque at 4000 rpm. Boost start at 2500 rpm and all hell beaks loose at 3500 rpm. The car can be used in town in any off boost situation, with the sensitive button clutch(sintered metal) the only problem.

http://s1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee380/corriedewilde/

[Stichl]

155 Q4 gearbox is C503 type
156/147 and others 5 and 6 speed gearboxes are C530 type
the big difference is in bearings of first and second shaft
C503 uses ball bearings
C530 uses roller bearings

The c503 gearbox is much stronger
its have strength plate at he backs two bearings
the only problem is that there is no same plate on the front of two bearings
that is the reason to make this mod
http://scara73.it/motore/motor14_2.htm




the TS gearbox is C510 type and have different internals


I did this mod as well in combination with the stronger gears 1-3 (http://scara73.it/motore/motor14.html) and an addtional streghtening plate like this one to avoid a breaking of the housing between 2nd shaft and main diff:
http://www.walkers-garage.co.uk/shop/contents/en-uk/d20_01.html
I hope the box will do ~ 650NM now.

I used a normal Dedra Integrale gear box in combination with one strenghtening plate from Walkers for a longer time and about 565HP. I avoided heavy starts etc and I did not have any failures so far.

I wonder that I don't hear anything about transfer box failures or rear diff failures with high powered cars.
Does someone know the limits of these two parts or has someone broken these parts already with too much torque/HP?!

Juergen