Fuel pump issue [Archive] - BerlinaSportivo

Alfa Patch

31-08-12, 13:00

I decided (wrongly) to wash the engine bay of my car the other day. I was relieved when it started back up afterwards and drove home happy.

Until the little git started splluttering about halfway home and then cut out.

The issue appears to be fuel pump related, I can always hear it at start up but now it is silent. There have been a few times where it buzzes in and out but its not consistent. I could also hear the pumps relay clicking in and out as the pump pumped/stopped.

My initial method of 'letting it dry out and keeping my fingers crossed' has somewhat unsurprisingly not worked out and the car still has the same problem after a couple of days.

The manuals on here only list troubleshooting diagnosis for Twin sparks and V6's (unless i'm being a moron) and as they have a different system it isn't exactly helpful.

Does anyone know where i might find the proper bit of the manual? Or have any advice on where to start looking for the fault? Everything else electrical appears to be working correctly and the car did run fine for about 3 minutes yesterday before breaking down again during a rather ambitious test drive and leaving me a dejected 10 minute walk home.

Any advice would be helpful otherwise i'll probably lose my mind trying to blindly look for the fault in a very crowded (albeit now clean) engine bay.:loco:

AlfaJack

31-08-12, 13:20

I don't know how washing the engine bay would affect the fuel pump. I think it is more likely you need to go round the engine bay with some WD40 on all the leccy connections - starting at the two relays on the bulk head - think one of these is for the fuel pump. Then move on to the crank sensor.

Steve Webb

31-08-12, 16:29

How did you wash it? Steam cleaner/Jet wash/product and rinse off?

I'd be giving anything that looks remotely electrical a squirt with water displacing fluid/wd-40.

Alfa Patch

01-09-12, 08:35

How did you wash it? Steam cleaner/Jet wash/product and rinse off?

Steam cleaner and degreaser, i was pretty careful but still have disturbed something. I sprayed everything up with WD40 but no joy.

Time to get the multimeter out and start hunting for 12v feeds i think, ill start at the pump relay and work backwards. Should be fun!!!!

Alfa Patch

01-09-12, 20:31

alfa155chris

01-09-12, 21:39

I've fitted a relay in the boot of the 155 20vt project

Steve Webb

02-09-12, 06:43

I found the correct bit of the manual.

The relay has 12v at the right bits but there is no 12v at the pump.

Tomorrows task will be to run a wire straight from the relay to the pump and see if I get any joy with that.

I have read that lots of grale and coupe owners run a feed straight from the battery to a relay relocated in the boot near the pump as apparently there is a problem with voltage drop to the pump. Anyone know anything about this or done it themselves?

Have run out of light and patience for today. More scrabbling around in round 2 tomorrow ;)

There is a connector for the feed to the fuel pump in the passenger foot-well area near to the ECU. You might want to take a look under the carpet just in case the problem is completely unrelated to the cleaning. (Wouldn't be the first time.)

Alfa Patch

02-09-12, 08:17

There is a connector for the feed to the fuel pump in the passenger foot-well area near to the ECU. You might want to take a look under the carpet just in case the problem is completely unrelated to the cleaning. (Wouldn't be the first time.)

Ah thats where it is. I was looking for that as i also think it maybe the problem but the manual only shows roughly where it is so i was looking on the otherside of the bulkhead!

I will still run the wire (loosely outside the car) first just to make sure the problem is not further up the system.

As you say it certainly wouldn't be the first time that something has broken coincidentally at the same time as a potential cause but the two things are completely unrelated. Can't wait to finish work and get back to the car

Steve Webb

02-09-12, 15:01

I think its fairly easy for the passenger to kick the wire and pull the connector apart, especially if the driver is 'pressing on' and causing the passenger concern!

Alfa Patch

08-09-12, 06:24

Car started and ran fine this morning in the cold. I had to go to work so didn't have time to let it fully warm up but is there anything temperature related that may cause no signal to the fuel pump / ignition?

Do Q4s have a inertia fuel cut off switch? I had a look under the driver and passenger seats but couldn't find one?

Steve Webb

08-09-12, 06:30

Nope there isn't an inertia cut out, (I spent ages looking for one once) the pump is controlled completely by the ECU.
My fuel pump problem was down to the connector in the passenger footwell.

Can't think what could be causing the problem if it only happens when the car is warm.
Are any of the relays etc located under the rear seat? Have you taken a look to check everything is connected ok under there?

Alfa Patch

08-09-12, 08:47

I have the seats out at the moment as I was trying to find the demister box.

I haven't disturbed anything but have checked it's all plugged in correctly though.

I ran a 12v feed straight to the pump yesterday and the car started and ran for about 10 seconds then cut out. Is there a chance that if the ecu doesn't get a return signal from the pump it will shut the ignition/injection down?

It's a deeply irritating problem. I don't dislike electronics and am usually fairly good with them but this is really pi**ing me off now.

I have followed the fuel pump diagnostic part of the ecu manual but parts of it require the car to be running in order to establish there is a ground which I haven't been able to do obviously. Finally it says to check for 12v at the connector for the pump and if there's not one then reinstate the wire between pin 87 of the pump relay and the pump. Well I have done this but there is no point as the pin of the relay doesn't have 12v itself. Bizarrely the pin is not part of the earlier diagnostic checks but that seems to be 'a' if not 'the' problem.

Any advice would be massively appreciated otherwise it looks like the car will be off to a garage (which I can't afford) to troubleshoot. It's probably a waste of time sending it to anyone other than coupe/integrale specialists so labour costs will be stupid plus the cost of getting the car there!!

I've only had it back 3 weeks since the gearbox was rebuilt and to say I'm frustrated is a massive understatement.

wrinx

08-09-12, 08:59

Are you able to run the diagnostic software?

wrinx

Alfa Patch

08-09-12, 09:14

Are you able to run the diagnostic software?

wrinx

I'm not but I guess an Alfa dealer could?

Would this be beneficial? I suppose it can't do any harm

wrinx

08-09-12, 12:18

I guess the dealer could, but they won't know what a 155 Q4 is! :lol:

You might be better with a local Alfa specialist.

wrinx

Alfa Patch

09-09-12, 12:57

I started the car yesterday evening and it ran. For the first 30 odd seconds there was a slight miss fire. It was barely noticeable and was not consistent but I could hear it because I was listening out for it. After a minute or so it completely went and I ran the car up to temperature allowing the fan to kick in twice before switching it off.

I immediately turned the ignition back on and got a nice healthy, consistent pumping noise from the fuel pump. The car started up fine and I moved it down the street to get it closer to my house. Again no problems at all.

It was way too late in the day to be getting stuck somewhere in a broken down Alfa last night but I'll take it for a test run today and keep my fingers crossed.

Could it really have taken two weeks to dry out? I'm sceptical but it would be nice if it's back to itself as I have some fun bits and pieces to fit to it.

Steve Webb

09-09-12, 13:26

I'm not but I guess an Alfa dealer could?

Ha Ha Ha! have you ever been into an Alfa main dealer and said you had a Q4?

I remember having an interesting discussion with a parts guy once. He refused to acknowledge that Alfa had ever made a 2.0L 16v turbo engined 155, and certainly not as early as 1994 (the year of my car) Took a trip outside and a look under the bonnet to get him to finally believe me.

And yes i can believe its taken 2 weeks to fully dry out. All those rubber boots that are designed to keep water out are very good at keeping water in, if it ever gets in there.

I suggest you drive around the block a few times to double check it all out.

Alfa Patch

09-09-12, 13:45

:)

I didnt really mean a "main dealer" but as wrinx suggested an Alfa friendly garage. To be honest most of them don't even know what it is either. I have the proper q4 workshop manual (in its cool red folder) and drop that off with the car whenever I take it anywhere ;)

Alfa Patch

09-09-12, 20:12

Took the car out tonight and all seems fine. About a 20 minute round trip with no issues whatsoever. Seems that there was something still damp after all this time. Lesson learnt though, I won't be washing the engine bay anytime soon ;) Of course it probably won't start tomorrow now that I've started to trust it again!

Fitted a bailey recirculating dump valve in now which seems to be working nicely. A very subtle whooshing noise off throttle instead of the 'look at me' chatter it had.

When the car is on form it puts a massive smile on my face!! Happy again :)

Alfa Patch

07-10-12, 20:36

So water appears to be my cars fun new Achilles heel.

When driving home Friday night in the driving rain the sod decided it would cut out at 2am. Fortunately I was pretty close to home but pushing the car to the side of the road and walking home left me drenched.

The car started yesterday and ran for long enough to get me home then cut out again. Same today, I left it running outside on the turbo timer and it sat idling for around 15 minutes before again it cut out.

Does anyone have any ideas on where the fault maybe? When the fault rears its ugly head there is no signal being sent to the fuel pump. However simply running a 12 volt to the pump doesn't keep it running more than about 10 seconds before it dies and won't restart (the pump still pumping).

All interior electronics function fine although the 'blower' has been working intermittently recently, perhaps due to its resistor thing. The exterior electronics (lights etc) work and there are no warning lights on the dash. The engine cranks fine, oil pressure is fine, the car runs fine when this isnt happening it's very much all or nothing.

I'm determined to find what's causing this now as even though I don't use the car much I don't want to get stranded everytime it gets wet. My theories extend about as far as earths to the ecu?

Any and all advice would be massively appreciated.

wrinx

07-10-12, 21:24

Water in the crank sensor?

wrinx

Alfa Patch

07-10-12, 21:44

Water in the crank sensor?

wrinx

Would that stop the fuel pump pumping? I'll check though, is there a nice irritating cover and loads of other stuff in the way?

My camshaft sensor is quite exposed, could that cause it? I have tried starting the car with this disconnected by accident a few times but never noticed if it not being connected stops the pump?

wrinx

07-10-12, 22:31

I think it does, because there's no signal to the ECU...but can't be 100% without checking.

Does your car have an immobiliser fitted...water getting in there?

But, reading your post again it could still be the crank sensor simply failing and not because of water ingress. The first signs of failure are cutting out and only restarting after 20-30mins of cooling down...does that sound like yours?

wrinx

AlfaJack

07-10-12, 22:36

Can you disable or remove the turbo timer?

Alfa Patch

07-10-12, 22:44

It does although last time this happened it wouldn't start for days at a time sometimes.

Certainly will try to check it out tomorrow but my house is far from the best place to work on a car.

The car has an immobilser which does interrupt feed to the pump normally. I guess that could be the cause also. The fact the ignition is not playing ball when the pump has it's own 12v is confusing but perhaps the immobilser also interrupts the injection system some other way. It does appear to be functioning normally though and arming/dealarming doesn't change the problem.

Alfa Patch

07-10-12, 22:47

Can you disable or remove the turbo timer?

Yes but i highly doubt it's that. It is wired into the ignition so would (I think) not allow any of the interior electronics or lights to work. Its possible but my problem does appear to be water related.

AlfaJack

07-10-12, 23:02

Sometimes going back to the OEM setup can be good. However, if it is water/rain related then you could start at the crank sensor. Always good to have a spare on hand if possible anyway.

Nothing else should be getting too wet so sounds like a good possibility :)

Alfa Patch

07-10-12, 23:07

Too true. Time to search for one are they expensive?

Alfa Patch

08-10-12, 17:05

Where might I get one? Are they the same as deltas?

Thanks in advance ;)

AlfaJack

08-10-12, 18:24

Can't find the part number but it seems they are about £50 now! (I paid about £25-£30 but about 7 years ago!)

This might be the one:
http://www.deltaintegrale.com/details.php?Clv=3&C1=2&C2=8&id=23315

Alfa Patch

08-10-12, 20:31

alfa155chris

08-10-12, 20:49

The crank sensor was new when it was mot'd as it wouldn't start after it's retest when pete owned it. I sorted it as he had moved to leicester but car was in west sussex

Suzumushi

08-10-12, 21:08

Not bank breaking but more than I was expecting. Not really happy to throw £50 at a hunch but looks as though I might have to.

Could anyone with a running car disconnect the sensor for me and see if that stops the fuel pump running? I appreciate it may be a sod to get to but you would be the happy recipient of my long term gratitude :)

go to aftermarket parts shop and buy one of these

<part number> <manufacturer>
17002 ANGLI
1.953.002 EPS
550090 ERA
79016 FAE
60806494 FIAT
7547235 FIAT
7517006 HOFFER
18770 INTERMOTOR
453 002 KW
SEB 145 LUCAS ELECTRICAL
SEB145 LUCAS ELECTRICAL
064820088010 MAGNETI MARELLI
648 200 88 MAGNETI MARELLI
SEN 8I MAGNETI MARELLI
SEN 8IA MAGNETI MARELLI
87006 MEAT & DORIA
0902027 METZGER
XREV151 QUINTON HAZELL

these crank sensors are used in many fiat/alfa/lancia applications
costs about 30 EUR

but first try to check errors on ecu.

regards
W

Alfa Patch

08-10-12, 21:13

The crank sensor was new when it was mot'd as it wouldn't start after it's retest when pete owned it. I sorted it as he had moved to leicester but car was in west sussex

Yeah I remember Pete saying the crank sensor had been changed but that doesn't necessarily mean I didn't wreck it by washing the engine bay previously.

You seem pretty knowledgable on these things Chris, got any good ideas?

Steve Webb

08-10-12, 21:16

Not bank breaking but more than I was expecting. Not really happy to throw £50 at a hunch but looks as though I might have to.

Could anyone with a running car disconnect the sensor for me and see if that stops the fuel pump running? I appreciate it may be a sod to get to but you would be the happy recipient of my long term gratitude :)

I thought you said in an earlier post that even if you supplied the fuel pump with its own 12v supply the car would cut out after 10 mins.

The pump is usually controlled totally by the ECU, so if you manually supply the 12v and the pump still cuts out, I would say there is a problem with the pump or where it is earthing.

Alfa Patch

08-10-12, 21:19

these crank sensors are used in many fiat/alfa/lancia applications
costs about 30 EUR

but first try to check errors on ecu.

regards
W

Thanks

I had been considering one of these, to be honest hunting for parts confuses the hell out of me.

I will run diagnostics on the car (the iaw scan one wrinx highlighted) but my laptop is broken so need to wait for a friends. More crucially I need to find the driver software for the obd2 lead.

Thanks again for your help

Alfa Patch

08-10-12, 21:22

I thought you said in an earlier post that even if you supplied the fuel pump with its own 12v supply the car would cut out after 10 mins.

The pump is usually controlled totally by the ECU, so if you manually supply the 12v and the pump still cuts out, I would say there is a problem with the pump or where it is earthing.

It was more like 10 seconds before the engine cut out. The pump would continue pumping but the car would not run.

I was thinking maybe the ecu gets confused by the fact that the engine is running even though it has prevented a feed to the pump so it cuts the ignition but that's just a guess.

corriedw

10-10-12, 17:02

Get relays of al the types used and just replace them, the chances are very good you blew water under pressure into them.

Alfa Patch

12-10-12, 00:14

Not the crank sensor. Time to try relays. #>*^?~•!!!!!

Steve Webb

10-12-12, 18:18

Not the crank sensor. Time to try relays. #>*^?~•!!!!!

Did you manage to fix this with the relays, or has the Q4 miraculously self healed?

Alfa Patch

20-02-13, 14:11

Did you manage to fix this with the relays, or has the Q4 miraculously self healed?

She self healed, the cause was/is/appears to be water dripping down from behind the dash onto the ECU!

Its coming through the heater fan box which is letting water in due to there being no cover on it beneath where the wipers mount? Do they normally have one, seems odd to have a hole there?

corriedw

09-03-13, 09:45

Alfa Patch

10-03-13, 18:51

I would start with the relays in the engin bay. That is where problems come with the other Alfas during washing.

First the fuel pump relay. Just replace it, then you can open the old one up to see if you have blown water into it under pressure.

I have replaced both. It wasn't them, it appears to have been water leaking through the heater opening and in some cases leaking onto the ecu. I think i was lucky not to break the ecu

I have built a cover for it (mine was missing) and no more leak. I will have to wait till very very hard rain to see if I still have a problem but I think it's now fixed.

Tamael

10-03-13, 21:17

Alfa Patch

11-03-13, 14:35

There are water drain holes underneath the plastic cover where the fan motor air intake is. those can be clogged. Clogged drains usually changes the passenger side foot well into a kiddypool on these cars. you just happen to have the ecu there.

Lots of fiat's, lancia's and alfa's from this chassis type have that issue.

Tamael

That's helpful advise thanks. I'm sure you're right and will check this next time I have the cover off. For now at least my problem is fixed though.

Patch