Delta integrale 8V ECU wierd problems

[belidirkac]

Hi,

I have a strange problem with my 8v integrale. I have the car completely restored in the last 6 years and now in May when I first started it up I hit a bump.

The car doensn't run on the standard 8V ECU. This was checked with a second OE ECU. Both are working in a friends 8V integrale as they should.

But at the same time the car runs normally on a Dedra 8V turbo ECU and on a 8V integrale KAT ECU. It even works on a 1.6 HF Turbo ECU.

Not only it runs I have driven it for over 900km on the Dedra ECU but on the OE ECU it hardly starts then struggles and is totally unresponsive to throttle blips.

Any ideas?

[Steve Webb]

Hi there, missed this post, sounds a very strange problem. Is the engine a standard non-kat 8v unit?
Have you made any modifications to the engine at all?

To be honest it sounds like the engine is missing a sensor which the original 8v ECU needs a signal from to run, but to be honest I can't see what the 8v ECU would need that the 8v Kat ECU doesn't.

Like you say you've tried with 2 ECUs that you know both work on another car, so you can safely say that the ECU itself is not the problem.

Mpampis_ is the resident ECU guru on here so maybe he can help you out.

[belidirkac]

Hi,

the engine is almost standard. I have the intake camshaft from a NA engine, head is ported, forged pistons and a spesso headgasket. No hard core modifications. Modifications are not the issue as we are not discussing non-optimal performance but basic starting up, tick over and throttle response. On all other ECU's the car is perfectly drivable but on the OE ecu it struggles to start, idles rough, doesnt respond to throttle blips and cuts out.


Integrale 8V, Dedra 2.0 turbo and Delta 1.6 turbo have identical sensors:

-water temperature
-air temperature
-TPS
-APS
-crank position
-cam position
-knock sensor

Delta 8v KAT has an aditional lambda input.

THE CULPRIT:
http://shrani.si/f/1X/KX/2hZOkS6u/20120626205023-large.jpg

[hf hpe]

do you try your ECU on other car?
Look inside in ECU, I know some cases with "remaped" ECU's

[belidirkac]

Car tested now with 3 different grale 8V ECUs 2 x standar and 1 chipped. All 3 work normally in a different car.

[Steve Webb]

When you talk about the ECU, do you mean the whole ECU box or just the Chip?

If you have been just swapping the chip I'd suggest swapping out the whole ECU box.

[belidirkac]

When you talk about the ECU, do you mean the whole ECU box or just the Chip?

If you have been just swapping the chip I'd suggest swapping out the whole ECU box.

I am talking about the whole ECU unit! So tested with 3 seperate ECU boxes!


Engine before installation:

http://shrani.si/f/l/xh/RqWw220/1/09052011636.jpg

[AlfaJack]

Beautiful!

[Steve Webb]

Damn that motor looks brand new. This is now getting to be a really weird problem.

Is the block etc originally a Delta 8v unit?

From what you have said there is no reason I can see why it shouldn't work, yet it doesn't even with multiple ECUs.

Have you got the part number for one of the ECUs that work, and one that doesn't.

I think the standard 8v is IAW 049 WH4E.03/0A0_F6

If we can see what is different between the two, we might be able to figure out whats wrong.

[ebh-mor175]

belidirkac : have you try to exchange the chips between the 2 ECU ?

On my Delta Integrale 16V, suddenly the program on the chip was corrupted

[belidirkac]

Hi,

Thank you. The car has been completely restored in the last 6 years... I have a thread going on Guy Crofts forum.

In short:

BEFORE:
http://shrani.si/files/11115872149u9.jpg


After a lot of cutting and welding came sandblasting and primer:
http://shrani.si/f/2n/sh/O5Yv6yQ/dsc02758.jpg

Than the paintwork:
http://shrani.si/f/1p/13p/75dUpxx/dsc03316.jpg

And the almost finished car:
http://shrani.si/f/18/VB/2WXSIJlJ/20120822181603-large.jpg


Of course all the bits got the same treatment!


I tested with this ECUs:

#1 - WH4WE.03/0A0.F6

#2 - WH4WE.03/0A0.F6

#3 - WH4WE.03/0A0.F6 FITTED WITH EVOCARS TUNING EEPROM

#4 - I have 3 additional eeproms 1 original and 2 modified and I swapped them between ECUs and no result!

The working ones:

8V KAT - WH47.08/8PI.55

Dedra turbo - WH473.08/8PI.CB

I noticed yesterday that if i change the ECU when the engine is hot I get a reasonably stable idle without cutting out but as soon as you touch the throttle the engine revs drop. As if you are only letting more air into the engine but no petrol maybe???

:loco:

[AlfaJack]

Wow! Exceptional!

[belidirkac]

I changed the engine loom last week and there is no difference! :huhsign:

Any ideas?

[Steve Webb]

There has got to be something simple that you have overlooked. Several known good ECU's don't work, now 2 wiring looms don't work, all on a freshly rebuilt engine.
There is something fundamentally wrong here.
Have you been through all the sensors with the workshop manual to make sure you are getting the correct readings?

[belidirkac]

Hi,

I did test all the sensors that could be tested with an Ohm meter and replaced even replaced them later. Also replaced the ones that could not be measured. No difference.

Checked all parts and found I may have found something wrong. I think I have a distributor from a 16V engine and the crank pully (that carries the trigger wheel) is also not the correct one. Can anyone identify it? My eper doesn't recognise the number!

http://shrani.si/f/3P/UG/3QHD7UeO/20120906193223-large.jpg

I am not sure if this is it as this would only cause the ignition to be offset and this would be wrong for ALL ECU's probably?

And here you go boys, I made short 10m video of my 6 years long restoration:
My Lancia Delta Integrale restoration - YouTube

[Steve Webb]

Hi,
I am not sure if this is it as this would only cause the ignition to be offset and this would be wrong for ALL ECU's probably?

Just an idea if there is a car you could borrow, maybe you could try one of the ECU's that work in your car into another Integrale 8v and see if it fires up.

Maybe there is a difference with the trigger on the crankshaft.

[Steve Webb]

Oh and great vid of the restoration. Do the 8v's suffer from stress cracks like the Evos?

[belidirkac]

Yes all integrales suffer from the same stress cracks. Don't believe anyone that tells you Evo's are any different :loco:

The difference is more or less only on the suspension etc. but the body is the same weak shell. You do have to remember that the body was designed for a 1,3 liter petrol engine and FWD and was then modified to come out in the end as a 2.0 turbo 4wd :)

Anyway after changing all the sensors, multiple ECU's and the engine harness I set to change the pully+trigger wheel assembly. As some of them differ...

Immediatly after putting the OE pully on I noticed that the trigger wheel is in exactly the same spot... :eek:

So I guess this will not solve the issue.

[Steve Webb]

Really not sure what to suggest now, this is a very strange problem. I'd say you need to get the car hooked up to some sort of diagnostics. I think there is definitely something amiss somewhere, and one of the standard 8v sensors is wrong/mis-reporting.

[belidirkac]

Upon discovering I have a wrong trigger wheel and distributor I changed them over the weekend for the correct ones. Despite not being able spot a difference between them I changed them over anyways. But to my shock the car now decided to start and idle normally on the OE ECU. But upon taking the car out for a drive i discovered that car develops a miss-fire each time it reaches about 2800rpm. The engine still works normally with the 8V CAT ECU... I am totally lost now. Will have to dig even deeper.

[Steve Webb]

So with the 8V Cat ECU it revs past 2800 without a problem?

[belidirkac]

YES. The bloody 8V Cat ECU works like a charm....

It seems like the 8V ECU is in some sort of "safety" mode as it looks like I am hitting the revlimiter at 2800rpm.

Better than before but I am running out of ideas what to check.

[Steve Webb]

It does sound as though the ECU is now in a 'safe' mode, or not reading all the sensors correctly.
I had a similar situation once with a split pipe to the Map sensor. The car was making boost, but the ECU wasn't reading it so not adding extra fuel and not running well. Happened around 3k rpm as well.

[belidirkac]

I managed to borrow the IAW ECU tester. But I don't know if I have the right cassette for it! Anyone have the codes of the cassettes?

[belidirkac]

This is the tester... I managed to find a manual for the tester but I cant find the list of modules. And there are too many for me to test... Also I am not sure if I won't fry something if I miss match the ECU and the test module!

http://shrani.si/f/3N/JA/1QeTyhSy/20120920183538.jpg

[Steve Webb]

I'm sure someone on here had the modules that included the one for the Q4. Can't remember who it was though. Sorry.

[hf hpe]

what type is your ECU
for IAW P8 with CO trim is module MM19-A
without CO trim is module MM23-A

What cams are you use
and what cam pulleys

similar problem haves cars when there is no synchronization between crank and timing sensor

[Steve Webb]

I tested with this ECUs:

#1 - WH4WE.03/0A0.F6

#2 - WH4WE.03/0A0.F6

#3 - WH4WE.03/0A0.F6 FITTED WITH EVOCARS TUNING EEPROM

#4 - I have 3 additional eeproms 1 original and 2 modified and I swapped them between ECUs and no result!

The working ones:

8V KAT - WH47.08/8PI.55

Dedra turbo - WH473.08/8PI.CB


I knew someone would know the module codes. These are the various ECUs that have been used.

[Brul(tm)]

1NRO is looking in to it, i read on the forum of Guy Croft ;)

:thumbsup:

[ebh-mor175]

perhaps the PMH sensor ?

[belidirkac]

I managed to connect using the M6-B module and tricking the tester to think it is connecting to a 8V KAT ECU.

On the 8V KAT ECU I don't get any errors but when I connect the OE ECU and hit the 2800rev mark it reports an ignition errror.

Suposse to be the trigger sensor or the phase sensor... Both have the resistance well in the specified tolerances (checked again today) and I have no idea what could be wrong with this two sensors if they seem to be working with other ECU's...

[ebh-mor175]

Your car is working with dedra/delta 8V 4WD calculators (WH47.08/8PI.**) but not with delta 8V HF/Int (WH4E.03/0A0_F6).

:?

Several websites indicates that some Lancia Delta 2.0 16V used the WH4E.03/0A0_F6 (? strange)

[Steve Webb]

Have you got this running correctly yet? Must be frustrating having the car all sorted apart from the ECU.

[Tamael]

Its a old topic but i might post anyway. Seems to what i read that the topic starter has a wrong map sensor fitted. He never checked fuiling in everything thats checked.

Wrong map sensor can cause the car to overfuil or put the ignition in overboost cut-out. Seen this happen with a ford. Costed me a week to figure out.

Map went all the way up to 5 v at the slightest boost. Causing the ignition to cut becouse the map was outside the safe limits (voltage output) there was a 1.4 bar map fitted while it should have been a 2 bar (absolute presure)

[Steve Webb]

Map sensor sounds like a good call. Especially if the wrong one gave an overly high reading to the ECU even when off boost.

I don't suppose anyone has a graph of Pressure vs voltage for the various Map sensors?

[Tamael]

Map sensor sounds like a good call. Especially if the wrong one gave an overly high reading to the ECU even when off boost.

I don't suppose anyone has a graph of Pressure vs voltage for the various Map sensors?
give me the numbers and ill get the reference sheets.

If no sheet then ill have to drive to a local scrapyard and get a couple mapsensors and map them out.

usually its lineair where 5 volt is max of the sensor. its about the amount of hpa. since the car is running on the dedra ecu i can safely say thats its the wrongor malfunctioning map. Dedra has lower boost setting and a different map sensor then the delta. thats why its responding better to the dedra ecu.

sounds like there is a N.A. engine map in a turbo car. because there is a 1 bar version, 2 bar version, 2,5 bar version and a 3 bar version. Either its the wrong one or the sensor is miss wired or dead.

Tamael

P.S. datasheets of the map sensors used in fiat and lancia. there is one missing but will check later in the week.

http://www.cosworth.hu/content/hasznos/Weber-Marelli%20sensors/aps02_03-05_01.pdf

http://rpm.planetaclix.pt/ecu/PRT-MAPsensors.pdf

[belidirkac]

I didn't manage to fix the problem yet!

But I have tired replacing the MAP sensor and it didn't help with the problem.

And I have the right APS 02/03 MAP sensor (2.0 bar) for this engine. Remember that the 8V only has a single MAP sensor.

I think the problem is with the crank sensor. The trigger wheel has a bit of a wobble and I suspect that might be the root of the problem.

[Tamael]

I didn't manage to fix the problem yet!

But I have tired replacing the MAP sensor and it didn't help with the problem.

And I have the right APS 02/03 MAP sensor (2.0 bar) for this engine. Remember that the 8V only has a single MAP sensor.

I think the problem is with the crank sensor. The trigger wheel has a bit of a wobble and I suspect that might be the root of the problem.

a strobe will show you that since ignition timing is done from the crank sensor. engine wont run without crank sensor but will without phase sensor.

use a strobe and scope to check the timing and signal.

but since its running on one ecu i really suspect a dodgy wire/sensor in the map circuit. the output with airline disconected should be 2.2 volts if the sensor is a 2 bar. conected line and idle engine is like 0,7 to 0,8 volts.

Oh one we could be missing, Charged air temperature and water sensor. are these checked and swapped? Could be as easy as those.

Tamael

[belidirkac]

I already tried changing:

-MAP
-crank sensor
-trigger wheel
-phase sensor
-water temperature sensor
-air temperature sensor
-engine harness
-ECU
-idle control valve

And I have measured the resistance of each sensor from the ECU connector to ensure that the wiring is OK.

I will check the MAP outputs.

[belidirkac]

I forgot to add that I also tried changing:

-TPS
-ignition module
-ignition coil

[Tamael]

And scope the outputs of the sensors and at the ecu. Could respond very differently in an dynamic situation eg running engine.

I think that the thing we are missing is either a damaged or crossed wire or a sensor that is not doing as you expect.

Tamael

[belidirkac]

ECU ISSUE FIXED YESTERDAY!!!

As it turned out a forum member Nik was right in pointing me at the direction of trigger wheel to sensor gap.

http://shrani.si/f/y/Ox/7NHIeaV/1/photo.jpg

I measured mine and found gaps:

#1 - 1,1mm
#2 - 1,6mm
#3 - 1,1mm
#4 - 0,6mm

So the maximum allowed gap difference between adjacent teeth is 0,2mm and mine was 0,5mm! As this is not a small difference I decided to follow trough and try to exorcise the demons. I used a file to shorten the 3 teeth that had the gaps narrower. Installed back the trigger wheel, measured again, and a bit more filing later the gaps were all at 1,6mm +/- 0,05mm. Then I narrowed the gap to 0,9mm.

After a re-installing the auxiliary belt etc. I swapped the ECU to the OE one and fired her up. Everything started normally and the moody lady seemed happy to rev above the magic 2000 rpm mark where that illusive barrier lay beforehand. I reassembled the rest of the car, installed back the GC recommended spark plugs and went for a test drive. It looks like the problem is fixed! I got the car up to 5000 rpm with no problems. But as it was already dark the local roads became a popular meeting ground for deer, rabbits and other suicidal animals so I decided to stop with experiments for the day.

Thanks to everyone that helped with their advice! It remains a mystery why this gap would cause one ECU to fail and the other have no problem with it.

I still have a slight wobble in the pulley:

Pully - YouTube

Not really sure what to do with it but I might just have to let it be...

I will now raise the boost pressure to the 1 bar that it is suppose to be. I am currently still running it a 0,5 bar.

I am thinking of installing a WB lambda. Any recommendations for a tight budget?

[PhoB]

Hi, sorry for gravediggering. But i meet exactly this problem today. Thanks for this thread.
Gaps was 0.8/1.15/0.8/0.6 , wobbling pulley, cat ecu runs no problem, older non cat cutting out around 2-2,5k.
I never tested it at WOT yet.

From which manual is the posted printscreen? Critical information.