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mpampis_
19-02-12, 22:08
Hello guys, I would like to make a question about the "famous" evocars chip. I read many articles specially in fccuk forum that there were some fake binarys. Does anyone have the original binary file of evocars? Just to compare it with our maps specially the advance map that I heard that is advanced a lot. Thank you guys. Something that I would like to suggest is for making a task like ecu page and post some binaries of ours that is working well and of course the car's setup like CR, fuel type etc. I think this will help a lot of us

Suzumushi
20-02-12, 07:59
Hello guys, I would like to make a question about the "famous" evocars chip. I read many articles specially in fccuk forum that there were some fake binarys. Does anyone have the original binary file of evocars? Just to compare it with our maps specially the advance map that I heard that is advanced a lot. Thank you guys. Something that I would like to suggest is for making a task like ecu page and post some binaries of ours that is working well and of course the car's setup like CR, fuel type etc. I think this will help a lot of us

Hello, don't know answer for Your question but i like Your idea, as my car is currently in ecu specialists and they are making for me dual map setup.
One of they thoughts was that original maps are "crappy" in terms of advance map especially.

Page with maps will be really nice, and only these that are not copyrighted :)

regards

mpampis_
20-02-12, 11:42
Posting ecu binaries is for educational purpose only. Every car than completely stock is different. Different CR, gas's octane, intercoolers, afr etc. I just thought it was good idea to see what anyone has done and what are the results

Steve Webb
20-02-12, 12:50
It might be a good idea to create a form where people can fill in what mods they have made to the car along with the chip used. That way it would be easier to compare different cars.

mpampis_
20-02-12, 19:30
Do it Steve, I will post then some nice stuff. As I asked above, does anyone has this evocars chip to compare with?

Steve Webb
20-02-12, 21:43
I've been having a play with the form this evening, what sort of details do you think would be good to collect?

As for the Evocars chip, I've got one in my car, sorry don't have an electronic copy of the chip.
Actually I think it was my car that the chip was developed on, if I remember correctly, the chip is a hybrid of the Grale chip with Q4 data. It was written for the car then fine tuned on a rolling road.

Steve Webb
20-02-12, 21:56
Just out of interest as well, what are you guys using to read/write the Eproms?

mpampis_
20-02-12, 21:57
I understood! Well the most important details for the form is compression ratio, type of Intercooler, map sensor (2.5 or 3 bar) and boost pressure. If anyone think that something else is nesseray he can tell us an opinion

AlfaJack
20-02-12, 22:44
Octane rating?

jimnielsen
21-02-12, 00:45
Steve, I have a copy of the EVOCARS chip that I can email..

mpampis_
21-02-12, 04:28
Jim, would it be possible to send it to me too please?

mpampis_
21-02-12, 04:31
Just out of interest as well, what are you guys using to read/write the Eproms?

I have a friend of mine that has a programmer and I use it too. I don't know the brand but in www.moates.net there is a small cheap one that I guess is doing it's job great :)

Steve Webb
21-02-12, 08:40
I have a friend of mine that has a programmer and I use it too. I don't know the brand but in www.moates.net there is a small cheap one that I guess is doing it's job great :)

Cheers for that link, anyone got any experience of the cheap ones from eBay? They look too cheap to be any good, but you never know.

Steve Webb
21-02-12, 08:40
Steve, I have a copy of the EVOCARS chip that I can email..

Cheers Jim that would be great.

mpampis_
21-02-12, 08:49
Cheers for that link, anyone got any experience of the cheap ones from eBay? They look too cheap to be any good, but you never know.

It is cheap in case of others, no so cheap in reality. This is the direct link
http://www.moates.net/burn2-chip-programmer-p-197.html

Steve Webb
21-02-12, 09:40
This is the list of things that could go into the form for people to fill in. Not comprehensive or in any particular order.

Air Filter
Inlet path
Inlet manifold/Plenum
Intercooler
Exhaust Mainfold
Turbo
Exhaust system
Crank
Con-Rods
Pistons
Camshafts
Head
Base boost pressure
Base Fuel pressure
Compression ratio
Fuel used
ECU Chip

I'm currently playing around with Adobe to get a form that allows you to choose between standard and modified for each item, then the oppotunity to add the modification as text.

These forms could then be attached to a post in the users garage section.

mpampis_
21-02-12, 09:44
that will be a great job Steve

Steve Webb
21-02-12, 19:17
Oh how about this for the form, 1st draft so any criticism welcome.

The idea is that people can fill this form in, then add it to a post in their personal garage thread.

mpampis_
21-02-12, 19:38
Oh how about this for the form, 1st draft so any criticism welcome.

The idea is that people can fill this form in, then add it to a post in their personal garage thread.
this is nice, they can write some delails next to each task. maybe you will need some upload form for the bin file, or a task with a screen shot of the maps

alfista_AR
21-02-12, 21:40
It is cheap in case of others, no so cheap in reality. This is the direct link
http://www.moates.net/burn2-chip-programmer-p-197.html

I bought this one from E-bay.
It's largely more complete than any other models, I intended to use it for other purposes besides ECU programing.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PCB5-0E-Universal-EPROM-programmer-BIOS-PIC-Chip-/390333965378?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ae1b7a442

-Dario

Steve Webb
22-02-12, 09:04
I bought this one from E-bay.
It's largely more complete than any other models, I intended to use it for other purposes besides ECU programing.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PCB5-0E-Universal-EPROM-programmer-BIOS-PIC-Chip-/390333965378?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ae1b7a442

-Dario

That does seem to cover far more type of Chip that some of the others. Good price too.

Juan AR155Q4
30-03-12, 14:26
I have a couple of binaries files that could upload.

Steve Webb
30-03-12, 15:43
I have a couple of binaries files that could upload.

If you send them through to me at steve@berlinasportivo.com with a description of who wrote them I'll get them uploaded.

balage
25-08-13, 15:55
Hi Jim!
I am Balazs from Hungary, I've got a Q4. Could you please send the Evocars chip copy for me?

thanks

corriedw
19-01-14, 05:03
Hi Steve,

Like we discussed long ago, I still need this chip. Could we possibly get the binary file for this on the forum. Maybe the std Evo-chip and the modified one, to be able to see the adjustments. I am not worried about fueling, I can solve that. The amount of timing retardation with high boost is important. Otherwise I must redesign the wheel again.

[Quote]Hi Corrie,

The file for the chip has been finished now. The chip is based on the EVOcars chip with a few differences. With a 3 bar Map sensor the boost limit for the chip is 1.9bar. The rev limit has also been raised to 7200rpm.

There are a few prerequisites for using the chip, the fuel pressure on the rail needs to be raised up to 3.2bar. The Pierburg valve is probably not going to be able to cope with the amount of boost the chip allows so we would recommend using a manual boost controller. The standard fuel pump is not gonig to be able to cope so will need to be upgraded to something like a Walbo 255lt/h and for the safety of his engine it would be best to use a wideband lambda sensor to see if A/F is ok ( 11:1 is suggested for this chip)

Lastly, this chip has the capacity to grenade a standard engine, using this chip carries risks that we cannot accept any responsibility for. You will be using it at your own risk.

Thanks[Quote]

corriedw
19-01-14, 15:04
Oh how about this for the form, 1st draft so any criticism welcome.

The idea is that people can fill this form in, then add it to a post in their personal garage thread.

This is great Steve. You can elaborate a bit on some questions.
Plenum dia: std, 75mm(3"), 100mm(4")
Throttle butterfly size: std(50mm), 60mm, 70mm
Exhaust size: 57mm(2.25"), 63mm(2.5"), 76mm(3")
Exhaust manifold: std, short runners, Long runners
Inter-cooler area: std 800cm2(130"2), 1100cm2(176"2), 1650cm2(264"2)
Camshafts: Std, road(add 1mm lift), race(add 2mm lift)
Head: std, gas-flowed
Head gasket: Std, metal strengthened
Head bolts: Std, ARP, 12mm
Balance shafts: In use, removed

corriedw
19-01-14, 15:06
Steve, I have a copy of the EVOCARS chip that I can email..

I would appreciate if I can get it too

fa175
23-01-14, 11:48
Does any one has good Bin file for lancia delta hpe ?
My engine has Forged Pistons with cr ~8,5 ,and ijectors 650cc i wana start with e85 fuel , i think my boost must be about 1,4 bar .meybe any one did this ? :D:unsure:

Evodelta
27-01-14, 20:28
Does any one has good Bin file for lancia delta hpe ?
My engine has Forged Pistons with cr ~8,5 ,and ijectors 650cc i wana start with e85 fuel , i think my boost must be about 1,4 bar .meybe any one did this ? :D:unsure:

Why not fit a mappable ECU? Safe and easy....

Suzumushi
28-01-14, 08:41
Why not fit a mappable ECU? Safe and easy....


Can confirm that this is in my opinion best way, no more burning eeproms, and opening ecu etc....
fast and easy mapping.

regards
W

corriedw
28-01-14, 13:05
Can confirm that this is in my opinion best way, no more burning eeproms, and opening ecu etc....
fast and easy mapping.

regards
W

There are one problem with ALL of the aftermarket management systems. Not a single one of them has knock protection. The two things that kill turbo engines is knocking and F/A ratios.

If you have the right fuel, cold plugs and timing retard enough the engine will not knock. This is not the same for all engines and dyno operator must have done dozens of your model in your state of tune, to be able guarantee that it will not detonate while it gives max performance.

A/F ratios are often installation errors. A wire come loose or fuel pump is too small or pack-up.

In SA there are 3 companies manufacturing aftermarket ECUs, so there are some experts, but none specialize in Alfa.

I want a std ECU with knock sensors and will correct fuel outputs with a piggyback chip. I may fine tune the timing with the same chip but needs the ECU to retard timing when knock start. I don't think I will use more than 1.5 bar boost, but even then if something goes wrong(which happens) and boost goes above 1.5 bar the std MAP sensor will send zero reading to the ECU. That means no fuel and the lean mixture will destroy the engine instantaneous.

That is why I paid Steve to supply me with chip for 1.9 bar boost and I am also looking for a 3bar map sensor. But none of the items is available yet, so my 155 is standing like a white elephant, because I can not do the dyno-tune to set it up. Apparently the program was written, so if I can get that I will find some way to get a eprom written.

Suzumushi
28-01-14, 14:08
There are one problem with ALL of the aftermarket management systems. Not a single one of them has knock protection. The two things that kill turbo engines is knocking and F/A ratios.



Are You sure about that ?

from my aftermarket ECU, based on oryginal MM IAW

" Extras - Knock strategy
Further parameters to optimize knock inhibition strategy are listed here.

Use fixed init retard if faster than [RPM]
If engine speed is higher than this and knocking is detected, initial knock retard will be set to Fixed init retard instead from starting from 0.

Maximum retard []
This is maximum ignition retard the knock inhibit strategy can apply.

Minimum retard []
This is minimum ignition retard the knock inhibit strategy can apply.

Retard increase rate [/detonation]
For each detonation pattern detected, ignition retard will be increased by this amount.

Retard decay rate [/s]
Once detonations are not present anymore, ignition retard will be reduced by this value every second.

Double decay rate if retard higher than []
If ignition retard is higher than this value and no detonations are present, ignition retard will be reduced at twice the rate specified by Retard decay rate.

Adaptive filter threshold
This value affects how knock peaks are detected (i.e. how should a knock peak be recognized among other engine mechanical noise). The value given should not be altered, unless detonation is not getting detected reliably, and altering levels does not help.

Minimum signal level at 4500RPM
If knock sensor signal level is lower than this value at 4500RPM, knock sensor error is recognized. The signal at 4500RPM generated by normal engine mechanical noise should be higher than this. Value to be established experimentally. Default value suits most 4 cylinder engines with Marelli knock sensor.
"

regards
w

corriedw
29-01-14, 04:50
You don't mention the name of the management system you use. There are always new products on the market, so I stand corrected if I am wrong.

I regularly speak to the guys at a reputable speed shop. They drag race two cars in the SA series and build a half a dozen wild cars a month of all kinds, with part of the owners preferences. They tune two dozen more a month that was build by the owners. So different imported and local management systems turn-up and I haven't seen or heard of one better than OE managements. Another problem is the amount that these systems can retard the timing. A turbo car need double the amount of retardation of the timing than a normally aspirated car.

The latest OE systems like Alfa GTV series 3 and all Direct injection engines use systems that continually advance until knock is detected every time you rev it. We have proved that Alfa OE ECUs can retard enough for a turbo application if A/F ratio is good and boost is low. And lately we used low pressure turbo applications on, non Direct injection cars, with 10:1 and 11:1 compression ratios. Maybe my friend Hennie's GTV is still on MRD's (Minnaar Racing Developments) facebook page. We stuck the turbo to a std engine and it reliably developed 330 wheel horsepower(330 kW on crank) on the dyno at 0.4 bar boost.

Knocking occurs easier at high boost, low RPM situations. The place to look at first is where the boost rise rapidly ie 2500 to 3500 rpm depending on turbo.

fa175
29-01-14, 08:47
Why not fit a mappable ECU? Safe and easy....

So yes i have and piggyback but more easy is just change eprom and go. Mapping is good,but if i have some engine changes i must go again map it's not cheap.

Evodelta
29-01-14, 21:56
From my aftermarket ECU, based on original MM IAW


w



You don't mention the name of the management system you use. There are always new products on the market, so I stand corrected if I am wrong.

I regularly speak to the guys at a reputable speed shop. They drag race two cars in the SA series and build a half a dozen wild cars a month of all kinds, with part of the owners preferences. They tune two dozen more a month that was build by the owners. So different imported and local management systems turn-up and I haven't seen or heard of one better than OE managements. Another problem is the amount that these systems can retard the timing. A turbo car need double the amount of retardation of the timing than a normally aspirated car.

The latest OE systems like Alfa GTV series 3 and all Direct injection engines use systems that continually advance until knock is detected every time you rev it. We have proved that Alfa OE ECUs can retard enough for a turbo application if A/F ratio is good and boost is low. And lately we used low pressure turbo applications on, non Direct injection cars, with 10:1 and 11:1 compression ratios. Maybe my friend Hennie's GTV is still on MRD's (Minnaar Racing Developments) facebook page. We stuck the turbo to a std engine and it reliably developed 330 wheel horsepower(330 kW on crank) on the dyno at 0.4 bar boost.

Knocking occurs easier at high boost, low RPM situations. The place to look at first is where the boost rise rapidly ie 2500 to 3500 rpm depending on turbo.

He means The original P8 worked over by RP Labs.

I don't know whether there are aftermarket ECUs with knock control, manufacturers previously kept away from it because it's extremely difficult to make it work reliably on all of the various engines.
If you've built your car up to a good standard you shouldn't need one, although there is always a risk. A map shouldn't be so close to the limit that any small deviation means meltdown.
Anyone who felt they needed it in the past just fitted an aftermarket stand-alone with a read out and an alarm.

There are still 3 bar Marelli sensors left, you just won't pay the price they are now asking as it's gone NLA and prices have gone up. There are now plenty of cheap copies on the market though.

This outlines the problem with using the P8, it's old, outdated, prone to breaking and some of the sensors it uses are NLA and getting scarce. The Map sensors have gone, TPS gone, cam position sensor gone, I get asked for these ECUs regularly.

Check these prices out:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/THROTTLE-POSITION-SENSOR-WEBER-PF09-COSWORTH-TPS-NOS-/190806424677

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-MAGNETI-MARELLI-3-BAR-MAP-SENSOR-COSWORTH-/310843247052?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item485fb389cc

That's 400 in two sensors :E
That's nearly 50% of the price of a new ECU which is up to date, 'plug n play'.


This is just one of the reasons I always use aftermarket ECUs, good quality sensors are cheap and easy to come by, Bosch TPs 45, Map 20. Software is readily accessible and downloadable.
The WM uses a 4 tooth trigger wheel which is caveman technology, even though the processors are pretty quick, the ECU doesn't know what the engine is doing for 90 degrees of crank rotation so we use 36 - 1.
The break points on the OE ECU are also very wide apart and a bit rough - every 500rpm, it's useful to be able to fine tune a bit better than that.

Need a different sensor on one of our new ECUs? No problem, just alter the scaling, dial it in, off you go.

Evodelta
29-01-14, 22:07
So yes i have and piggyback but more easy is just change eprom and go. Mapping is good,but if i have some engine changes i must go again map it's not cheap.

No matter what process you use, If you change the engine parameters you will need to change the map whether it is contained on an Eeprom or in the ECU memory.

Engine tuning isn't cheap, melting engines is free though. :lol:

corriedw
30-01-14, 04:56
In SA engine tuning is cheap. I can get a dyno session for GBP60-100.

At one stage I looked for a reliable knock sensor alarm to use during tuning. The problem is it is difficult to hear knocking in the Lampredi engines which include the Alfa TS. I looked at KnockLink but is uncertain if it is worth the money? Maybe somebody can advise.

I really look at getting 400 hp reliably from my Q4 which should be possible if half what is written about these engines are true.

Evodelta
30-01-14, 09:24
Everything is cheap in SA, I feel your pain having to order anything from Europe.
I can only recommend the British knock sensing and ECUs I've used/sold, but it would cost too much for you probably.
I think the future aftermarket ECUs will feature knock control 'cos it's what the people are asking for and technology is moving on to be able to utilise it too.

Lampredi didn't have anything to do with the later TS engines. People tend to believe they are connected, as they have similar features, but they aren't. The later TS engines aren't very strong either, Guys who have raced them, modded and broken them for years are ditching them in favour of the Lampredi. We've now got FWD 155 and 156 models hitting the race tracks built with engines from cheap Coupe 16vts. If you know it's weak spots you can build a good strong engine.

corriedw
30-01-14, 12:10
Lampredi may not have been involved in the TS engine, but it is a very close copy of his engine. The block is identical in layout and the heads follow the same small port design. Everything is just made cheaper, also without solving cam belt issues.

corriedw
31-01-14, 03:59
Everything is cheap in SA, I feel your pain having to order anything from Europe.

At the moment it is the worst in decades and doesn't help my projects. The new African government is seriously screwing it up.

Evodelta
07-02-14, 08:20
At the moment it is the worst in decades and doesn't help my projects. The new African government is seriously screwing it up.

I heard you aren't allowed LHD cars there too?

I was speaking to the guy who creates our ECUs, he used to work at Lotus and I mentioned a couple of the things we were discussing. He said that their future ECU will have knock control, but it's not due out till next year. It took Lotus a whole year to get it right on one of their engines.

On the subject of the cheap Weber/Marreli 3 bar bap sensor copies that are available now, apparently they are terrible! They tested one and the scaling was all over the place and got much worse when it was hot - so one to avoid there if at all possible.

corriedw
07-02-14, 10:09
Yes no new left hand drive cars are registered in SA. when I bought the Q4 second hand, I could not register it and had to rebuild into a right hand drive body. So much for collector value.

In an NA Alfa I would have left the std ECU funtioning as normal. I would have added addisional injectors and a aftermarket ECU and set it to function on manifold pressure. (multiples of 550cc injectors, a 1000cc injector is cheaper but do not have a good spray pattern) Then when the boost build-up, the aftermarket unit will start pulsing the addisional injectors. We got excellent results with these set-ups on 3 high compression and 2 low compression TSs and 3 high compression and 1 low compression Buso engines with good power and excellent fuel conumption when off boost. I can say we had no failures due to knocking or bad A/F ratios. Obviously the Bosch ECU can pull the timing back far enough in boost situations. We used 0.5 bar boost on high compression TSs and 0.4 bar on the high compression Bussos and 1 bar on the low compression cars. None of these cars had the Q4's restrictive valve timing or intake manifolds, so boost to power is much beter than a std Q4.

As for the Q4, one possibility is to run it with a TS ECU but will need a air mass meter and a piggy-back chip to correct for the larger mass meter. At least the Bosch ECU is not obsulete and the std map of the TS should be close to the Tipo engines. The chip can run the extra injectors, but we have not used it for that on a turbo car yet. It is possible to run a standalone unit to fuel the engine under boost like we have done before. The bad bit is sorting the engine out with the many varibles on this engine. (Intake and exhaust manifolds are rebuild, head is flowed, both cams lift around 1 mm more, turbo is larger, exhaust is rebuild, possible non std ECU).

#84
10-05-14, 18:09
Evocars ignition map for "Fast road" 155 Q4. Read from bottom to top.

054 054 060 048 040 036 030 024 012 009 006 004 001 008 008 008 | 1
062 062 062 054 044 038 036 026 014 010 009 007 003 012 011 011 | 2
074 065 058 052 051 045 052 048 024 010 021 016 016 022 018 018 | 3
112 098 091 080 083 102 105 093 078 053 044 043 042 040 031 031 | 4
117 120 108 103 106 131 132 119 112 100 091 082 077 050 039 039 | 5
133 113 125 122 145 151 152 140 133 120 109 104 098 053 053 053 | 6
133 120 125 137 149 162 166 160 149 138 122 116 106 068 064 064 | 7
128 120 132 144 156 167 168 164 153 138 123 113 102 080 072 067 | 8
127 119 131 143 154 165 166 163 154 143 131 121 111 087 082 075 | 9
127 119 131 143 154 164 166 163 154 143 131 117 104 086 082 075 | 10