View Full Version : Intercooler tech.
Steve Webb
25-01-11, 10:18
Thought I'd reinstate this thread as it was pulling up some good info with regards to endtank design.
From looking at the original IC design it looks like the plastic endtanks may have been employed so they could obtain a good tank design cheaply? The original IC does seem to perform to a resonable standard without being overly large.
I've attached a couple of pics to this post and a pdf article that looks into endtank design.
The first pic is of the standard IC alongside an aftermarket , 'improved one' , the second pic is how I think the aftermarket one could be improved further.
Steve Webb
25-01-11, 10:35
And for a little background reading take a look at a couple of these links:
ARE Intercooler tech. (http://www.are.com.au/techtalk/intecoolersMR.htm)
Intercooler theory & Practice (http://deltaparts1.blogspot.com/2010/03/intercooler-theory-and-practice-part-1.html)
What do you think about this intercooler? http://www.lanciahf.eu/intercooler_lancia_delta.html it's similar at the one you have shown on your post, but not exactly the same.
I'm thinking to go for it because it will fit on the same place that the OEM intercooler and is wider than it, i supose it will cool the air better than the OEM one.
Is made from PACE PRODUCTS http://www.paceproducts.co.uk/public_html/php/products_info.php?parent=4&productID=car/fiatcoupe i have sent a request about the price and the answer was 400 ?
http://www.lanciahf.eu/images/intercooler_pace4.jpg
Steve Webb
26-01-11, 18:02
Looks like a good start, should improve flow with the increase in charge area. Although it does seem rather expensive at €400
Steve Webb
26-01-11, 19:16
If you haven't had a look around the front of the original IC, this is the diffuser that is sat infront of it. Not good for overall airflow.
http://berlinasportivo.com\Technical\intercooler\intercoo ler.jpg
If you haven't had a look around the front of the original IC, this is the diffuser that is sat infront of it. Not good for overall airflow.
http://www.berlinasportivo.comTechnicalintercoolerinterco oler.jpg
This ?
Steve Webb
27-01-11, 18:10
If you haven't had a look around the front of the original IC, this is the diffuser that is sat infront of it. Not good for overall airflow.
http://www.berlinasportivo.comTechnicalintercoolerinterco oler.jpg
This ?
Is there a problem with that photo that I linked to?
Buy yes it is the same as in the attachment. The diffuser is there because most of the IC is tucked neatly behind the fog light.
Steve Webb
27-01-11, 18:16
If you haven't had a look around the front of the original IC, this is the diffuser that is sat infront of it. Not good for overall airflow.
http://berlinasportivo.comTechnicalintercoolerintercooler .jpg
This ?
Thats weird, when you quote with that pic, it takes all the '\' out of the link.
But yes that diffuser, I guess its there to try and get some airflow over the IC after its been tucked behind the foglight.
Steve Webb
27-01-11, 18:17
And now the postings are going squiffy!
Is there a problem with that photo that I linked to?
Yes, Cant see any photo in the #5 post.
Steve Webb
28-01-11, 19:56
I'll try again with the pic:
http://www.berlinasportivo.com\Technical\intercooler\inte rcooler.jpg
Now can you all see that?
I'll try again with the pic:
http://www.berlinasportivo.com/Technical/intercooler/intercooler.jpg
Now can you all see that?
No, but the url was wrong(used "\" instead of "/") in your post, I fixed it in this reply.
Steve Webb
28-01-11, 22:49
Cheers, just out of interest what browser do you use?
I am using Opera most of the times and Firefox now and then. I've checked the picture problem with both browsers, no difference.
No, but the url was wrong(used "" instead of "/") in your post, I fixed it in this reply.
Yes, just realised that in the other thread.
wrinx
Steve Webb
01-02-11, 07:48
i have sent a request about the price and the answer was 400 ?
http://www.lanciahf.eu/images/intercooler_pace4.jpg
Forgot to ask, did Pace back up the price of this IC with any flow figures or cooling claims?
Steve Webb
01-02-11, 08:03
i have sent a request about the price and the answer was 400 ?
http://www.lanciahf.eu/images/intercooler_pace4.jpg
Forgot to ask, did Pace back up the price of this IC with any flow figures or cooling claims?
No Steve, they didn't say anything about that.
I have one more pic for comparasion with OEM intercooler and one with the PACE intercooler mounted on a Lancia Delta II HF HPE
http://www.lanciahf.eu/images/intercooler_pace3.jpg
http://www.lanciahf.eu/images/intercooler_pace.jpg
Anyone know were they selling the intercooler in post nr 1? I am looking for a bigger one and the orginale. I remember from another tread that it was 33% bigger and fit in the orginale position.
No-one...it was a custom built mod. I emailed Sammi to find out more but no reply :(
Nearest will be the Pace cooler mentioned further down.
wrinx
Ok, thanks anyway. I have to see what I can find...
Anyone know were they selling the intercooler in post nr 1? I am looking for a bigger one and the orginale. I remember from another tread that it was 33% bigger and fit in the orginale position.
One of my friend is a custom IC manufacturer and he can make that IC. I've spoken with him about that last weekend and the price is roughly €200-250. I will speak with him soon for more details.
One of my friend is a custom IC manufacturer and he can make that IC. I've spoken with him about that last weekend and the price is roughly ?200-250. I will speak with him soon for more details.
That price sound's fantastic, I am intrested!!!
Does he fancy doing a run...would help his profit margin? ;)
wrinx
Steve Webb
07-02-11, 18:37
Does he fancy doing a run...would help his profit margin? ;)
wrinx
I'll second that.
I got a price of 480? pluss 25% VAT from my local dealer for a copy of the IC in the first post. Then i stick to the plastic crap and hope jNk can fix a better price ...
I've talked with Gabor(IC guy) again about the upgraded original placed IC.
His thoughts:
-Price/performance wise the fmic is better upgrade because this is still behind the foglight and the airflow restricted bumper
-The bigger core will "absorb" more heat but it is more measurable in dyno/inlet temp than sensible when you drive
-The full alloy construction can take 4 bar so no more pressure restriction IC wise :)
-The original IC has got low pressure loss across the core so the upgraded ones pressure loss is in the more measureble than sensible category too
-The price is in the ?200-250 zone, the exact price depends on the ICs size which will be calculated by Gabor (on my car) if Integrale or someone else wants to buy one
Steve Webb
20-02-11, 22:15
I've just been going through a book on designing turbo systems and have been looking at the section on intercooler flow.
From what I have read (and please correct me if I've not got it right) when working out internal flow area you need somewhere in the region of 8 sq in of intercooler area per 100bhp.
The cross sectional area of the original q4 intercooler is (210mm x 65mm) 13650sq mm or 21.2 sq in. If you factor in the fact that air flows down only approx 45% of the total cross sectional area (the rest consists of cooling fins) then the internal cross sectional area of the std intercooler is only 9.5 sq in which is 'good' for only 119bhp.
This seems rather low to me seeing as the std car puts out @190bhp.
Am I being too simplistic with these figures? As working through , to have in intercooler that will be good for say 250bhp you would need in internal cross sectional area of 20sq in. Which means an intercooler with a cross section of 44.5 sq in (20/0.45)
If you use a core that is 3in thick then the core will need to be 15in deep. Which is going to be pretty hard to site at the front of the Q4 without going for a front mounted intercooler.
Please someone tell me I've got my sums wrong somewhere!!
Nope, the sums are right, it's what I was saying in the thread that got lost.
Steve Webb
21-02-11, 09:39
Ouch, so effectively the std intercooler is acting as a restrictor in the system.
For example if you have a tuned Q4 that makes @250bhp, but peak power comes at @5000rpm, how likely is it that you are simply coming up against the limit of intercooler to flow enough air to allow the motor to make power?
I've only seen a couple of rolling road printouts on here but max power always seems to be made low down the rev range.
jimnielsen
21-02-11, 10:31
Steve, what would be very interesting is to insert a temp sensor after the standard intercooler and log the inlet air temp vs boost. Mostly you only see figures for that sort of stuff from cars that already have an FMIC - but it would be interesting to see what sort of inlet air temp the std cooler is capable of producing...
Nope, the sums are right, it's what I was saying in the thread that got lost.
They are way to simplistic IMO though. Variables such as car speed is going to make a huge difference. How does that factor in.
Steve Webb
21-02-11, 10:54
I did do a quick test of the IC temp with and without the waterspray kit activated, but I'd like to be able to log the inlet temp / pressure against outlet temp/pressure against rpm. That way you would be able to see the efficiency of the std IC across the rev range.
However I've got a feeling that the hardware to be able to do that would be a little pricey.
Steve Webb
21-02-11, 10:57
They are way to simplistic IMO though. Variables such as car speed is going to make a huge difference. How does that factor in.
I was only really talking about the ability of the IC to flow the amount of air needed by the engine, not the ICs ability to cool the air. Once you go there you are into a whole new collection of variables.
Even the most restrictive IC will flow enough for the engine as the turbo will just keep producing enough pressure to overcome the drop accross the intercooler. This is not good for power however.
Also, not all intercooler cores are created equal. One core may vastly outflow another for the same cross sectional area due to larger tubes etc. When designing heat exchangers, flow and efficiency are the major trade offs. i.e. its easy to make it more efficient (cooling capacity for area) by effectively making it more restrictive. Automotive intercoolers needs to flow very well, hence the efficiency is quite low. As a result they need to be very large (surface area).
Steve Webb
21-02-11, 19:49
Even the most restrictive IC will flow enough for the engine as the turbo will just keep producing enough pressure to overcome the drop accross the intercooler. This is not good for power however.
Thats why when I was quoting figures I put good in speech marks. Talking in terms of ideals not real world applications. But it also points out how far away the std IC is from a theoretical ideal.
Also, not all intercooler cores are created equal. One core may vastly outflow another for the same cross sectional area due to larger tubes etc. When designing heat exchangers, flow and efficiency are the major trade offs. i.e. its easy to make it more efficient (cooling capacity for area) by effectively making it more restrictive. Automotive intercoolers needs to flow very well, hence the efficiency is quite low. As a result they need to be very large (surface area).
The 45% figure in the cross sectional area is an average for automotive ICs and seems to be used in most books when they talk about IC cores. If its good enough to be printed, then its good enough for me.
If you start making the IC flow too well then you run into a new set of cooling problems. If the air passes down the IC core too smoothly it effectively sticks to the surface of the IC, and only the air next to the core wall gets cooled.
Sometimes you have to be quite simplistic otherwise you drown in the details.
They are way to simplistic IMO though. Variables such as car speed is going to make a huge difference. How does that factor in.
True, simplified sums but based on flow potential rather than cooling ability aren't they?
With regard to cooling that's something at the mercy of the end user, you guyes over there face a higher ambient than we do for instance which I'd imagine could be included into an equation but things like shrouding or not or actual location would be beyond calculation possibly.
Even the most restrictive IC will flow enough for the engine as the turbo will just keep producing enough pressure to overcome the drop accross the intercooler. This is not good for power however.
Yeah, you can always force it through. BIG cause of lag though. Imagining a 15 psi boost level at 6000 rpm pulling 20 lb min (ish), that'd be 130 + litres of air every second waiting to get through. Fills up the whole inlet system pretty quick unless it's silly huge.
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