View Full Version : Spare Engine Project
jimnielsen
03-04-10, 07:55
Hi all.. I have just received the spare Q4 engine that I have purchased. Like my car, it came from Japan. I don't know anything about it except that it is here. I can see from the outset however, that it has had some 'mods' done to it. For example the "T" piece water hose at the rear of the engine has been sorted with a stainless steel job (like I have done on my own.) The inlet manifold oem hose clamps have been replaced with aftermarket ones - perhaps to have taken the head off - or maybe just to fix the rear water hose - who knows... But it seems to have all its sensors, etc, so at least I have some spares on that front.
I plan to disassemble the engine, measure everything and make a much more powerful engine than the current one - but that will be very expensive, so I am planning to do it over quite a spread of time.
SteveNZ - will a 131 bell housing bolt up to this engine?
jim ~...
The Engine looks good Jim, on the outside anyway. I've never seen a Fiat or Lancia with that pipe around the front of the motor; is that a an EGR?
Yep the 131 bell housing will bolt up. Depending on what 131 bell housing you have the starter motor may not fit but Ive seen brackets etc made up to make it work
One clean looking engine! Wonder how many miles it has on it. I see it came without the AC pump which is good.
The Engine looks good Jim, on the outside anyway. I've never seen a Fiat or Lancia with that pipe around the front of the motor; is that a an EGR?
Yes, that is the EGR which most of us have removed by now :)
looking good Jim :cool:
I''ll be following your rebuild.
I am still busy at home, didn't finish in time to start on my engine.
Regards,
Marc
jimnielsen
03-04-10, 23:25
The engine is clean as it was 'steam cleaned' prior to export, if you don't get that done at the port of origin, Australian customs will do it for you for about $250!! Yes, I have no idea how many miles the engine has on it - hope to get some indication as I pull it apart!
jim..
jimnielsen
05-04-10, 07:09
some disassembly..
At least the cam and balance belts are both in one piece! Engine seems to be able to be turned easily enough by hand, pistons look ok, looking down the sparkplug holes.
Q1. why does this engine have the solid metal cam wheels and the engine in my Q4 has the pretty ones with the holes? Were the holey ones used after a certain date? I don't want to use these solid ones as they are ugly and i bet heavy..At least someone has kindly written on the gears which one is the exhaust and the inlet!
Q2. On my current Q4 engine the bolt on the end of the crankshaft is left hand thread - is this always the case? I am concerned that this bolt head does not protrude all the way out of the metal plate (in the pic) probably because there is too thin a washer under it? Are they always like this?
jim..
Mine has the solid wheels too...I thought this was standard, so I think yours may have had them changed. Probably from a Fiat Coupe.
As for the crank nut, mine was a lefty thread and they will be all the same I think. Can you get a thin walled socket in there?
Confirmed - p/n 7691885 is for a Coupe or Delta.
wrinx
hm... bouth of my Q4 have originaly cam wheels with holes. i see solid ones for the first time :D
jimnielsen
05-04-10, 10:52
Yes, and I am certain that the cam wheels with the holes were supplied as original equipment on my current engine as they had never been off the cams before! But the solid one are horrid!
and no - there is no room for a thin walled socket - but i think all will be ok in that regard..
That timing wheel will pull off now that the 4 bolts are out so you can see the whole bolt head, just wobble it off the same as the aux pulley - all left hand threads (I have struggled enough to have this engrained in my mind)
I have the holey cam wheels too but on the other Q4 I had they were solid. That was 1994 car.
jimnielsen
05-04-10, 12:13
Thats right Jack! I remember now - I am glad that I didnt 'try to take it off with the timing wheel still in place!!!
In my experience its nothing more than lucky dip as to what cam wheels you end up with. I have a Lancia Dedra 2L 8V motor with the holes in it and the 16V style "round" tooth belt too. Some 16V's apparently got the 8V square tooth belt/wheels too, its listed in the parts manual for early Thema's.
The cam pulleys with holes in were introduced for the integrale Evo 2 which was around the same time they were letting Alfa have some of the engines, so they will be a mix of old and new.
Does the Q4 head have a smoothish cast finish or the crosshatched one of the Evo 2 onwards (or both)?
The first 16v engines introduced in (89-90?) had same kind of tooth form on the cambelt that the 8v engines had, it proved to be no good and after a few snapped prematurely the whole lot were recalled and a new trapezoidal tooth belt with matching pulleys was fitted.
The Q4 I took appart was from '92 and has the closed cam wheels. My Q4 is produced in december '94 and has the open cam wheels.
Regards,
Marc
Mine is 1993, closed wheels.
wrinx
My widebody also has the open version.
And i suspect all widebodys will.
jimnielsen
06-04-10, 07:12
Well there was an engine under all that stuff..
anyone care to hazard a guess as to the year of car that engine would have come from, from the engine number?
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n288/BrulTM/Engine1442476.jpg
This is the only thing I could find. M4 version, don't know when they where used.
For this you need the chassis number I guess.
Regards,
Marc
...anyone care to hazard a guess as to the year of car that engine would have come from, from the engine number?
Mine is 32072 for a 1992 (not 1993 as stated above!) so yours at 1442476 is obviously much later ...but if the engine numbers included Coupes and Deltas things will get very muddy!
wrinx
jimnielsen
06-04-10, 11:50
well my dec 1994 build one is 1597341...
Ah....guess the numbers are for all Fiat groups cars then :lol::doh:
wrinx
Juan AR155Q4
06-04-10, 20:19
1474487 from mid 93, with open cams wheels.
I do have form another Q4 (don?t know the year, 2 closed cams wheels, which I turned them in adjustable with some machining. I could post some pics if anybody wants.
jimnielsen
06-04-10, 22:21
yep, post the pics of the adjustable cam wheels and how to make them!
jimnielsen
07-04-10, 06:22
I pulled the head off the 'spare engine' - a couple of interesting things - the engine has been fitted with ARP bolts, quite different to the stretch bolts that are standard, also an MLS headgasket of some type has been fitted, looks to have been operating well, From what I can see from a brief initial inspection all the valves etc look ok, and the two bores I can see look in fine condition as well.
arjunior45
07-04-10, 11:53
my engine number, build in 23 Sept 1995, is 1679754 {if I recall it correct} or 1678754.
My parts cd does not give me the cars data with engine number only, sorry.
arjunior45
07-04-10, 11:57
I could post some pics if anybody wants.
yes please!!!
I pulled the head off the 'spare engine' - a couple of interesting things - the engine has been fitted with ARP bolts, quite different to the stretch bolts that are standard, also an MLS headgasket of some type has been fitted, looks to have been operating well, From what I can see from a brief initial inspection all the valves etc look ok, and the two bores I can see look in fine condition as well.
The headgasket was sealing well and the bolts look mint. They don't look very old at all.
Juan AR155Q4
07-04-10, 13:20
yes please!!!
Will create a new thread (http://forum.berlinasportivo.org/showthread.php?t=1653) so as not to pollute this one.
Juan AR155Q4
08-04-10, 15:44
I pulled the head off the 'spare engine' - a couple of interesting things - the engine has been fitted with ARP bolts, quite different to the stretch bolts that are standard, also an MLS headgasket of some type has been fitted, looks to have been operating well, From what I can see from a brief initial inspection all the valves etc look ok, and the two bores I can see look in fine condition as well.
It seems you have a combo like this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/COMETIC-HD-C4124-040-ARP-HSK208-6416-FIAT-LANCIA-DELTA_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4835ff4c2bQQitemZ 310143568939QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAc cessories).
jimnielsen
09-04-10, 07:38
Juan.. I bet you are correct - this is great info as it will help me find out what is the correct torque for these particular ARP bolts.
hmm.. but when i look at this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ARP-HSK-208-6416-FIAT-LANCIA-DELTA-16V-Engines-10mm_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33665QQitemZ310206 203463
the bolts I have are 8.25mm in diameter - and the above ones are 10mm - are they referring to the shank diameter??
Anyone think I can reuse the Cometic MLS gasket??
jim.
Juan AR155Q4
09-04-10, 13:07
OEM bolts are ?10mm and are measured in D as shown in this pic:
http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/5559/91142747.jpg
Regarding gasket, I certainly would re-use it. MLS allows reusing if the are not broken.
The head bolts are "10mm" because they have 10mm threads. Not all bolt designs have wasted shanks.
I would look at using O rings in the block with a new gasket if you are planning a lot of power, maybe even 12mm bolts.
If you want lots of power there is no point trying to save money by reusing these items.
Looks good Jim, a fault free unit to build up.
Cometic gaskets can be reused, several times with care. As Steve says though its not an item to risk reusing on a brand new build, not funny if you had to pull the head to replace. They will handle very strong power just as they come, the embossed surface around the various holes act in a very similar way to an o ring. If you ring it too the potential for leaks is high, they don't compress like normal gaskets. What thickness is the one you have?
The head bolts lack a few details I 'd want, no seating detail for instance. That and a lack of proper tightening data. This could be over come but spare studs for testing would be needed. 12mm would be the way I'd go if only to be sure I didn't regret it later. I've put some pics up of mine before, there's a guy on 124 who sourced some too, I've not seen them but they came from ARP. There are ARP 12 mm available on the net but be wary, they are meant for another engine completly and aren't suitable and there is a very strong suspicion that they aren't proper ARP. I'm a fan of the wasted detail, keeps the stretch in the shank rather than the stress riser haven that is the thread.
PM sent with CR data.
Nik
jimnielsen
18-04-10, 07:14
some more disassembly..Really it looks in remarkably good condition internally. The pistons have very little scuffing, the bearings have a lot of life left in them yet! But the best news is that the components that I actually need.. the block, crank, head, sump sections are all in fine condition.
the cometic gasket that I have is 2.0mm - probably too thick to reuse anyway..
jim.
Is it just me or does it look to of been apart before now? looks almost too clean. Good though eh! Whats the water jacket like?
2 mm cometic is a special order and done by people who build an engine to standard tolerance. No work being done hardly by the squench band/pads.
jimnielsen
18-04-10, 12:53
yep, its a pretty thick gasket for a standard engine. I am in two minds as to whether the the bottom end has already been apart or not - there are no obvious signs. The oil squirters have never been removed, nor have the balance shafts. The front and rear main seals look like the original type to me. Hope to strip it complete next week so that I can get a better look at water jacket...
jim.
jimnielsen
25-04-10, 00:19
Where can I purchase a complete set of new core plugs for the Q4?
thanks, jim..
From me, I bought the minimum order amount some years ago from Fiat which has left me with lots of spares.
I've got every core plug I've ever needed from Repco. Or one of the Fiat/Lancia specialists in Melbourne should surly have some.
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