View Full Version : clutch removal etc.
jimnielsen
16-03-10, 04:39
Now Alfa Island is over I have decided to try to chase down an oil leak that I have that is getting worse with each race meeting, and at the same time check out the clutch that has been slipping at high boost. So I have removed the lower cross member and tomorrow i will remove the gearbox. Also attached is a pic of one of the IC hoses - can you believe that I had this system maintaining 1.45 bar boost with a hole this big!
Wow, it was falling off boost at one stage wasn't it? That could be the reason. It will make more power after fixing that up too!
It looks like CV grease from the inner CV has sprayed out.
Ah, the common problem with that hose :tapedshut:
They never last very long. I have used three of them in 7 years time :eek: 2 new and one used. I think they are getting to warm/hot.
Regards,
Mac
arjunior45
16-03-10, 06:41
I'm going to change the same hose later this morning and it's just 2 years /15.000 Km old with oem boost.
Next time I'm going to search for a silicon {or similar} one.
It looks like CV grease from the inner CV has sprayed out.
Nah, looks too thin for that, it's dripping from the steering rack gaiter.
I'm guessing it smells like gearbox oil...
wrinx
jimnielsen
16-03-10, 07:27
~Well, I have the lot.. there is engine oil in volume, some CV grease and gearbox oil. I am going to fix them all!
Juan AR155Q4
16-03-10, 17:08
Which are the diameters of that hose? 3" to 2.5"?
From memory, 76 to 89 mm.
Regards,
Marc
Juan AR155Q4
16-03-10, 19:13
Sure it?s 76mm ?? I thought it was less...
So this would be a good replacement:
>link< (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/3-3-5-Intercooler-HPS-90-Deg-Silicone-Reducer-Elbow_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem35a7a385baQQitemZ 230445778362QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAc cessories)
jimnielsen
17-03-10, 03:54
I got the gearbox out today - not bad seeing as the first time I did it, it took me two weeks! I need to investigate the reason for all the leaks and look at getting a ceramic paddle clutch plate made up. I plan to use the existing center and have it made locally.
jim
jimnielsen
17-03-10, 05:57
and also.. at the interface where the driveshaft comes out of the differential - there is a black oring (see arrow) seal - is this seal important? I have usually just used RTV rubber sealant (that you can see here in orange). Can you purchase new ones of these, do they just come off or are they actually permanently attached??? Has anyone ever replaced this seal?
I think this may be one of my main leak issues.
that and the fact the the VC joint was not bolted up tight.. does the CV joint need a sealing gasket??
2ndly, see burning on flywheel from slippage.. should be ok...
Not sure on the seals, sorry.
Are you going to get the flywheel skimmed. You may have some judder otherwise?
Good chance to get it lightened too but not sure how effective this is on turbo cars.
arjunior45
17-03-10, 09:39
Good chance to get it lightened too but not sure how effective this is on turbo cars.
Yes, lightening the flywheel CAN have an effect on turbo cars too. You can have a quicker engine response. So will do lightening other engine parts {con rods, con rod bolts, front pulley, crankshaft ...}.
But, do you know {or someone else} the % off to go / or the mm to remove? I'm really very interested!
arjunior45
17-03-10, 09:50
From memory, 76 to 89 mm.
Regards,
Marc
it's 67 and 77 mm. Just measured the old tube.
arjunior45
17-03-10, 10:12
What's this Jim? Air filter intake?
And if so, did you have any issues with water/rain?
jimnielsen
17-03-10, 10:25
yes its the air filter that goes from a flexible hose to the turbo. I have not had any problems with rain or water...Any idea on my seals question?
jim ..
it's 67 and 77 mm. Just measured the old tube.
I wonder what hose I was messuring then :eek:
Regards,
Marc
arjunior45
17-03-10, 10:34
Any idea on my seals question?
jim ..
No idea. I have been told, long time ago, that it's a common/usuall problem that sealing but can be replaced/solved. But that's all I know.
Juan AR155Q4
17-03-10, 11:52
Can?t be replaced by an o'ring?
I think it is an unusual shape to fit inside the bolts.
p.s. Amazing balancing act with the gearbox on the jack!
jimnielsen
17-03-10, 19:17
No, the rubber ring is actually round - would this 'part' be available from alfa romeo? Has anybody ever replaced it before?
Is that just a standard O ring Jim? It looks like it is. It definately needs to be replaced. RTV is not necessary if the O ring is good. Some rubber grease can be used to make sure it does not get damaged when the gearbox is reinstalled.
I would just find an O ring that fits. It needs to be the right thickness of course. It does not need to be Alfa OE. I had a kit to make these O rings because dealers never seem to have these parts in stock.
The flywheel looks fine. The clutch centre spline is common so a clutch builder should be able to supply a new comp type plate for you if you want. Get the cover uprated of course too. Who are you using to do that?
btw you have a more equiped workshop than most mechanics!
jimnielsen
18-03-10, 01:36
Thanks Steve, I live in the middle of nowhere so I need enough equipment to be able to get stuff done by myself. I will see if I can fine an o-ring as you have suggested.
what do you think of this as a replacement clutch...
http://cgi.ebay.com/LANCIA-DELTA-HF-TURBO-EVO-89-96-ALFA-PADDLE-CLUTCH_W0QQitemZ250597593363QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item3a58c7d113
what do you think of this as a replacement clutch...
http://cgi.ebay.com/LANCIA-DELTA-HF-TURBO-EVO-89-96-ALFA-PADDLE-CLUTCH_W0QQitemZ250597593363QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item3a58c7d113
No idea but you would have to assume it's good. Notice the picture show is not a Q4 clutch
Search for Techniclutch on alfa155.org - they don't appear to have a great rep unfortunately.
http://alfa155.org/forum/search.php
My clutch is from here:
http://www.walkers-garage.co.uk/shop/contents/en-uk/d38.html
I got the alcon 6 paddle version+upgraded pressure group.
Very happy with it. It is still possible to use a bit of control, although there is a very short travel between on and off.
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/8011/foto0005.jpg
They also have lightened flywheels listed.
I had a simple question.
I'm not really good informed about the clutches available for our car, but I can say that I have no trust in such sintermetallic clutch plates.
Why don't you use, if you want to do a real upgrade
(because that's what I would do) a multiple disc clutch?
Something like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Titlon-7-25-3-DISC-29-SPLINE-CLUTCH-OT-II-NASCAR-ARCA_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem1c0ca9878cQQitemZ1 20471521164QQptZRaceQ5fCarQ5fParts
it's 67 and 77 mm. Just measured the old tube.
Get a 90 degree 76 -> 63 mm reducer elbow . This fits perfectly. j1v has written about that long ago and I can confirm it fits.
Your flywheel looks perfect.
Strong clutch cover is what you really need, or a multiple disc clutch as Gery suggest (given that you drive the car only on track and not in the city trafic).
I wouldn't worry about that seal unless it's damaged. I assembled my gearbox with a old seal and silicon stuff and it doesn't leak at all... Strange in your case.
BTW, it's a good chance for you to check the solar gear wear if you haven't done that yet. I had to make the whole new unit after I've discovered huge play in those small gears...
jimnielsen
22-03-10, 04:58
what about this one??
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Silicone-90-degree-Elbow-Reducer-Hose-64-76mm-2-5-3_W0QQitemZ300407417708QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Car_P arts_Accessories?hash=item45f1ad6b6c
arjunior45
22-03-10, 05:34
I think it will do the 'work'.
jimnielsen
06-04-10, 06:09
In the end I decide to go for an OMP clutch plate, I have received it now (see pics), so, soon the car can go back together again. One of the advantages of this type of clutch is that you can unbolt the clutch center that contains the splines and have a clutch plate made up with it very simply (the rest is just a bit of flat steel with riveted on friction pads..
Out of interest do they give the specifications of the clutch?
When the plate is worn out you can just get the pads replaced in theory, as long as this does not happen!!!
http://www.turbo124.com/forum/download/file.php?id=312
jimnielsen
06-04-10, 11:38
Steve, its just a clutch plate - I have not bought a new pressure plate at this stage. That's a shocking photo! I hope that does not happen to me! The clutch plate is quite lightly constructed, but looks well made and solid!
jim..
arjunior45
07-04-10, 09:58
In the end I decide to go for an OMP clutch plate, I have received it now (see pics), so, soon the car can go back together again. One of the advantages of this type of clutch is that you can unbolt the clutch center that contains the splines and have a clutch plate made up with it very simply (the rest is just a bit of flat steel with riveted on friction pads..
yes, but can you imagine what might happen if a part of the 'flat steel' brakes? It happens to me once and the cover plate was made out of aluminum!!!
That's why I do NOT like these kind of 'star' clutch plates.
jimnielsen
16-04-10, 07:16
Well.. I got a 76 - 63mm reducer elbow, but it does not fit :( - its just to strong to stretch over the 80mm throttle body inlet!! How have others addressed this issue? I can't find an 80mm to 64mm 90 degrees reducer elbow??
help!
jim..
Get a 90 degree 76 -> 63 mm reducer elbow . This fits perfectly. j1v has written about that long ago and I can confirm it fits.
Your flywheel looks perfect.
Strong clutch cover is what you really need, or a multiple disc clutch as Gery suggest (given that you drive the car only on track and not in the city trafic).
I wouldn't worry about that seal unless it's damaged. I assembled my gearbox with a old seal and silicon stuff and it doesn't leak at all... Strange in your case.
Did you try warming it up?
wrinx
jimnielsen
16-04-10, 10:40
yes, we put the 76mm end in boiling water, but its a '5 layer' silicon hose and its pretty stiff... perhaps I need a cheaper one??
Juan AR155Q4
16-04-10, 13:23
Ouch!!! I?m waiting to arrive a similar one!!!
Well, it's not an easy job, but it fits. I've did that "job" several times with Samco silicon hose and another one with non branded silicone hose. No need to heat it up. Try to push it hard and at the same time turn. And it slips on the TB.
You're just not persistent enought :D
Finally, try to use some kind of leverage tool. Did that once but there's no need for it actually.
Look at how beautiful 76 mm hose sits on OEM 80 mm TB.
Silicon lubricant should help no end :)
jimnielsen
17-04-10, 02:31
I agree that yours looks great - maybe I am not strong enough!
jimnielsen
18-04-10, 06:07
No - It won't go on for me! Epic fail. Hmmm. Its not even close really, the one I have just isn't very flexible..
OK, odd suggestion but can you trim or file out some of the inside?
Juan AR155Q4
18-04-10, 20:36
Mine's arrived yesterday.
I'm trying to fit in a spare TB I've but seems impossible.
It's non branded, maybe isn't as flexible as Samco... or maybe I'm weak as Jim!
yes, we put the 76mm end in boiling water, but its a '5 layer' silicon hose and its pretty stiff... perhaps I need a cheaper one??
I was searching for my boost leak yesterday and took the chance to measure the TB and the pipe.
TB: 80mm but needs to go over an 84mm ridge
Pipe: 64mm but needs to go over a 67mm ridge
I think an 82 - 65 reducer elbow might be better - if available.
jimnielsen
25-04-10, 11:37
Thanks Jack - I searched everywhere for an 80mm - 64mm 90 degree reducer elbow (thats 3.125" to 2.5") Could not find one. So I bought a simple 3.125" 90 degree elbow - and I am going to modify the 2.5 inch SS tube that I use to that it terminates in 3.125" as well.
jim.
Juan AR155Q4
25-04-10, 20:19
What about this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/3-25-2-5-Silicone-90-Degree-Reducer-Black-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem1e572d9c70QQitemZ13031 1625840QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries)?
Looks like you could get away with that :)
jimnielsen
08-05-10, 06:27
In the end, I decided to flare the stainless steel tube so that I can just use a regular 80mm 90 degree bend. they are easy to get and I can actually get them to go on!!
jim..
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