View Full Version : Inlet Manifold.
arjunior45
16-07-09, 10:49
which are the advantages - disadvantages for the following inlet manifolds?
A} Authentic one
B} from Lancia Delta Integrale
C} from Lancia Kappa
and
D} what do you think for one like these?
Watching with interest.
Didn't Stuntz make his own? Not heard any progress for a while :(
A) as compared to B) or C) or D) - higher torque at low RPM
A) disadvantage - very very very heavy as compared to (C) kappa. don't have the scale, but OEM weights tons as compared to Kappa
A) the inner diameter of pipes (where it connects to the enginehead) is smaller as compared to C).
A) - it takes more space as compared to all other under the bonnet.
C) disadvantage - you'd probably need to modify OEM a fuel rail, but can not confirm this 100% yet..
D) the one in the first picture looks very nice...
which are the advantages - disadvantages for the following inlet manifolds?
A} Authentic one
B} from Lancia Delta Integrale
C} from Lancia Kappa
and
D} what do you think for one like these?
arjunior45
16-07-09, 18:06
The first picture has 4 throttle as well as the inlet manifold {the part that goes to the engine head} from GrA Integrale / 155 GTA. Only the 'outer' part is 'handmade'.
What kind of engine power and rpm are you looking to compare the suitability to? Different design trends depending on target.
I've recently been making one which is away getting it's final bit of main welding done, it'll come back more or less looking like the finished item minus the various sensor fittings and vac pipe connection which I don't know exactly where they will be until I'm a bit further into the build. A chopped up kappa manifold for the runners with a heavy duty pair of plenums welded on Anyway, here's some pictures, some which rely on tape and bluetack for picture purposes / fabrication :-)
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/velocitytubes009-1.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/bellmouth002.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/manifoldwelding020.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/manifoldwelding018.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/bellmouth003.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/turboplacement003.jpg
jimnielsen
16-07-09, 21:54
I'd like to get a Kappa manifold too, on which to base a 'new' inlet manifold. Also - i'd like to try just a standard kappa manifold. It may well need a new fuel rail - but they are easy to make and access would be SO much better than the Q4 rail.
Prestocar tried a standard Kappa manifold on an engine that had nearly 500bhp already and apparently gained 5% ish. The problem though with the kappa manifold is too long a runner for those kind of power levels and a too small plenum, still had improvments but not as much as it might have had if it wasn't designed for a low rpm target.
What kind of engine power and rpm are you looking to compare the suitability to? Different design trends depending on target.
I've recently been making one which is away getting it's final bit of main welding done, it'll come back more or less looking like the finished item minus the various sensor fittings and vac pipe connection which I don't know exactly where they will be until I'm a bit further into the build. A chopped up kappa manifold for the runners with a heavy duty pair of plenums welded on Anyway, here's some pictures, some which rely on tape and bluetack for picture purposes / fabrication :-)
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/velocitytubes009-1.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/bellmouth002.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/manifoldwelding020.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/manifoldwelding018.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/bellmouth003.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/turboplacement003.jpg
Lovely work!:smoke::smoke:
arjunior45
17-07-09, 07:41
Prestocar tried a standard Kappa manifold on an engine that had nearly 500bhp already and apparently gained 5% ish. The problem though with the kappa manifold is too long a runner for those kind of power levels and a too small plenum, still had improvments but not as much as it might have had if it wasn't designed for a low rpm target.
well, let me ask you something.
I do care about torque and low – middle rpm and mostly about rev up the engine at those ‘low-middle’ rpm. I do not care that much for high rpm and ‘absolute’ power.
Will be better to have ‘long runs’ and ‘small plenum’?
With runs at the same length-size, does a smaller plenum have any improvement?
And what about the throttle size? A bigger one can make things worse?
The 5% improvement was seen at high rpm rather than low.
The kappa manifold is designed for a standard level of power with the constraints of the engine it was to be fitted to in mind. So if you where to stick to a standard setup but fit a kappa manifold it's fair to say an improvement can be expected. The further you move away from a standard setup the less suitable it might prove to be.
Longer runners suit a lower rpm and shorter ones higher rpm. Big plenums aren't a problem with drivability, it's just a chamber that the engine is trying to drain. a big throttle can make drivability worse, most after market stuff has a less than nice linkage gearing / caming. The one I'm using is a nice progressive mechanism and not silly big. There are a few little tricks in the plenum that help with this too.
It's perfectly possible to have a very powerful turbo engine that has excellent low rpm performance. Just because you want to protect low rpm doesn't mean you can't have power to make your eyes water.
arjunior45
17-07-09, 15:05
ok, thanks for the answer.
But, what about if there is no 'plenum' at all - like the first picture I've posted earlier? This should have a quicker responce to the throttles, don't you think?
It has a plenum the first picture doesn't it?
Do the maths on how much volume of air a given turbo passes into the induction system at the edge of surge and you'll see that there is no shortage even at this nearly unstable level. It doesn't take a moment for the capacity to fill when the throttle cracks open, it's handy though for the engine to have a good gulp at the beginning.
How about lag? where does that come from?
arjunior45
18-07-09, 07:02
yes, the first picture has a plenum but this one is 'before' the 4 throttles! So it has pressurized air in its space {from 1500 rpm and upwards - at idle has 0 bar but in any case no vacuum} and this pressurized air, as soon as the throttles open, goes directly to the inlet valves - no need to fill any space {small or bigger}. If I'm not mistaken, with this set up throttle response must be quicker.
In the oem set up, the plenum is between throttle and inlet manifold and it's a space with vacuum up to 1500rpm {more or less}. So when throttle opens there is the capacity of the plenum that 'must' be filled. Even if it takes a moment.
If the above are wrong please forgive my ignorance.
You see, I have no experience with turbo cars and I would like to understand the way it works. And believe that 'inlet' set up should be as important as the 'exhaust' set up.
I have something in mind and I'd like to have experts opinion.
I'm planing to go for :
a} short 'runs' {if this is correct - from the engine head to the throttles}
b} 4 throttles
and
c} a small 'plenum' connecting the throttle bodies to the intake 'sleeve'.
The only thing that troubles me is the position and the connection of the ICV valve to the trottle bodies.
And what about lag? I really do not know where does it come from and if the inlet setup influence that much - regardless the turbine.
Nick,
I personally don't see much worth in ITB's, ok there might be a fractionally quicker response but it's tiny and the benefits end there whilst the normal method of throttle before plenum allows some good work to be done with tuned runner lengths which won't work with ITB's. The main reason I didn't continue with ITB's is the unevenness of the air flow into the throttles, with the air sweeping round and into the plenum there is a bias towards some cylinders at the expense of starving others. It's possible to work through some of the problems they bring but there's just too much potential for inferior results and their complex nature makes them liable to cause problems in use (lots of areas for boost leaks for instance, four throttle spindles for a start and a total of 9 gaskets after the plenum not to mention the throttle linkage) I've spent a lot of time looking at them and for me the simple method is best but feel free to give it a go, it'll look bling if nothing else.
I mention lag as i think maybe you are looking at trying to reduce it in the wrong areas. As I said work out the amount of air involved in a turbo application and you will soon see that we aren't "waiting" for air to be supplied. Compare the amount the turbo supplies at a given rpm to the amount the engine consumes at that same rpm.
Nik
arjunior45
18-07-09, 08:58
Thanks for the reply Nik.
I'll sleep over and I'll give it a try as soon as I'll find a 'plenum' that can couple with the 4 throttle bodies {I have already as spare parts}.
the xxx pic, is a inlet manifold from a 20vt, and they are as standard pretty good. I did also put larger trottle on it and that was in fact not the best thing to do on a road car, it is a kind of on and off..
arjunior45
18-07-09, 14:41
this "a kind of on and off.." rings a bell to me.
Something like 'kenneth' maybe?
correct that's me :-)
i have just got a a 70mm throttle and would try that instead of the 90
arjunior45
18-07-09, 15:22
waiting for your comments.
sure but do not think i would have to do if before around monday, i have forgot my laptop on job, and would like to hvae it on the car to see how it behave.
Thanks for the reply Nik.
I'll sleep over and I'll give it a try as soon as I'll find a 'plenum' that can couple with the 4 throttle bodies {I have already as spare parts}.
Jenvey do a modular plenum that could likely be fitted, pretty good bit of kit for a normal bhp level. Pretty pricey at over ?500
Just looking through some of the stuff I have on ITB's and thought maybe you'd like a bit of full on bling, most excellent and mucho expensive.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/throttlebody-1.jpg
I like this one too, over ?600's worth of wiggins clamp before you even start making the rest but it is very nice.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/ubberplenum.jpg
what is that from ?? integrale or, and for road use or only "402 meters" ?
Second one? Can't remember what motor it was on but not one we have. Looks to me to be an all out, all rpm, top of the range, well designed, tractable beauty. Pretty much excellent for everything. I can only think of one feature that i can't see it has that I suspect it might have that I'd have on top of what you see there if money was no object.
arjunior45
18-07-09, 20:08
The first one reminds me of a N/A F1 setup and involves NOs or H2O? NOT road use, that's for sure! But where the TPS goes?
Second one has a very interesting plenum!!!
The first one is a na setup but a pleum is available to run boost.
Very interesting discussion and info, thanks.
One short note if we come back to Q4 vs Kappa turbo - kappa manifold has shorter runners as compared to OEM Q4 inlet manifold. So OEM Q4 set should be better for higher torque at low RPM as compared to kappa one...
Very interesting discussion and info, thanks.
One short note if we come back to Q4 vs Kappa turbo - kappa manifold has shorter runners as compared to OEM Q4 inlet manifold. So OEM Q4 set should be better for higher torque at low RPM as compared to kappa one...
Correct and vs the kappa would give more in high rom
arjunior45
20-07-09, 07:34
So, the oem Q4 set up {compared to Delta Integrale and Kappa set up} is better for higher torque at low rpm. And worse for the high rpm.
What about having
a} short run at the inlet manifold,
b} 4 throttle bodies
and
c} a small 'plenum' just as a 'connecting tube - box' to the turbine?
Something like the very first picture I've posted {from B&M engineering}?
Does anyone has a thought - opinion about?
1NR0; It is really a beautiful piece of work your inlet manifold, and very unconventional. Please tell us more what your idea is with this design. I suppose you have made some calculations, what do you expect from it?
I do not fully understand the layout, is it meant to be one long fat tube folded 180 degrees on the middle?
When you have put some much effort in it, why do the intake runners hav so sharp edges at the plenum connection? Or is it suppose to not matter? I realise that the accoustic tuning will give a more disticnt resonance frequency (if that is desireable) but the flow capacity will be decreased. Or?
Is it a 90 mm TB?
So, the oem Q4 set up {compared to Delta Integrale and Kappa set up} is better for higher torque at low rpm. And worse for the high rpm.
What about having
a} short run at the inlet manifold,
b} 4 throttle bodies
and
c} a small 'plenum' just as a 'connecting tube - box' to the turbine?
Something like the very first picture I've posted {from B&M engineering}?
Does anyone has a thought - opinion about?
What you describe there Nick is a inlet manifold designed for a mid to high rpm range such as competition cars spend most of their time at.
A small plenum will achieve nothing at any rpm level, if anything it'll be something the engine exceeds in it's demand, it'll not keep up. A big plenum will do no harm.
The best for what sounds like your target of low rpm response would be the Kappa with it's full length runners but a bigger plenum welded on, whilst the plenum is cut off you'd have the access to the runners to port them and ease them out to as big a taper in their length you can manage with the thickness of the alloy. This starts the speeding up of the intake charge (velocity) along the full length of the inlet port which the runner is part of remember. I personally wouldn't bother with trying to improve the low rpm response on it's own, target a higher rpm level and make sure the induction system has nothing to restrict it's passage to the engine, big spaces don't cause restiction, reduced cross section does that. A given square inch of area will only pass so much air, turning up the boost isn't the way to do it, there is plenty of air available, you just need to get it to the engine without restriction. boost doesn't hardly make any difference to the volume of air the engine can consume, the air mass however is a different matter all together.
Nik
1NR0; It is really a beautiful piece of work your inlet manifold, and very unconventional. Please tell us more what your idea is with this design. I suppose you have made some calculations, what do you expect from it?
I do not fully understand the layout, is it meant to be one long fat tube folded 180 degrees on the middle?
When you have put some much effort in it, why do the intake runners hav so sharp edges at the plenum connection? Or is it suppose to not matter? I realise that the accoustic tuning will give a more disticnt resonance frequency (if that is desireable) but the flow capacity will be decreased. Or?
Is it a 90 mm TB?
I've speced the dimensions to be something that comes on tune at about 8500 rpm which will allow me to pull past that up to 9500 rpm which is my target redline. I'm limited by turbo size to a power level in the 600 + bhp region, the turbo has been pushed to over 700bhp by some people which maybe I'll get near (one day when I get this bloody engine finished!). The inlet manifold you see is well capable of these targets and beyond if a bigger flowing turbo is used in the future.
The runner entrance in the posted picture is mid way through fabrication, there is a slight increase in radius since working it some more. The demand of the engine is less than what the runner will flow so no gain by making it more gentle in it's entrance, if anything the clear definition of the entrance improves the strength of the reflective pulse when it drops into the range. A big radius would dampen this pulse. A piccy of before and after a bit more work http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/?action=view¤t=9098c523.pbw there's been a bit more since then but not a hacking of a big radi onto the entrance.
The plenum is two plenums with a dividing partition which equalises the air as it passes into the lower plenum, the engine can then call upon a consistant supply of air without worrying that one cylinder is getting more air than another due to a bias or area of inconsistant turbulance. Bit like a Swedish plenum
Just a little 80mm TB :smile:
Nik
arjunior45
21-07-09, 06:33
Thank you very much for all the notes Nik. I'll keep them in mind.
Though maybe it'd be of interest to see the manifold now it more or less finished. still a throttle cable mount to make and weld on and a couple of little bits but basically it'll look like this. I'm happy.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/finalwelding001-1.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/finalwelding016.jpg
Very impressive...there's been some skilled time spent on that :cool:
wrinx
Thanks. A whole heap of my hours doing the fabrication and some serious skill by the welder to do approx 12 ft of weld to that standard and the local engineer who did some funky machining at various stages. One manifold down, one to go.
Nik
Definitely a welder to stay friends with, some really excellent work there (I used to do a lot of welding, including non-ferrous)...does he do custom intercoolers? :lol:
wrinx
He can weld pretty much anything to anything it seems, master of his trade. I've a loooonnnngggg list of things to fabricate to send down to him for final welding, one of which is my intercooler.
Juan AR155Q4
22-09-09, 18:31
Great work!!!
I do understand what you're aiming with 2 chamber/plenum, but how are they connected?
You will be using 2 staggered fuel rails or H2O/alcohol injection?
Just a provision for flow that is the equal plus a bit to the throttle body which is the smallest part of the inlet system :rolleyes:
It's going to be twin fuel rails and E85 through them both.
Woow, it looks superb.. Mass production or at least just one for me...
What ecu are you going to use with the twin injectors.. I am just doing twin injectors on my Kappa inlet manifold.
jimnielsen
23-09-09, 05:13
Kepsus - can you please update me on the benefits of dual injectors with this sort of setup? I used to use them on a race-car that used twin DCOE throttle bodies and the 2nd injector set was WAY outside of the inlet manifold and squirted across an air space - so i used the 1st injector set to inject into the normal place when revs and intake velocity were low.
But how will they help on a Q4?
One thing I would say is that I have upgraded my injectors from the 384cc standard ones to the DEKA IV 630cc ones... but .. if you are going to use E85 .. and... you are planning on making north of 300hp then the 630cc injectors and only just big enough!
Woow, it looks superb.. Mass production or at least just one for me...
What ecu are you going to use with the twin injectors.. I am just doing twin injectors on my Kappa inlet manifold.
Thanks. Mass production isn't likley, it was very labour intensive to make and very costly in materials and subcontracted labour. I'd consider a commission but people for that expense would be few and far between.
I'm going to run the eight injectors in batch fire using a motec m4 initially but for the future would like an ecu that will run them sequentially. just keeping it simple for now.
Nik
Thanks.
Jimmie, i am just making them now, but my point was use the original injectors as primay, and then my 770cc injectors as secondary. I am using Omex 710.
The reaso is that i would like to have the best from two world, i have tryed to only use the 770 it works fine, but in the low rpm and Idle thay do not work well, even that i am using full sequentiall
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