Engine Reassembly

[jimnielsen]

Well, that title is a few days premature, perhaps, but I'm sick of the "small problem at Sandown" thread - so i have decided to start one that is about assembly instead! hopefully I will start to actually reassemble the engine later this week!!!! Anyway. I am interested in peoples opinions on pre-priming the oil system on the Q4 Engine. I am planning on using this basic methodology..

YouTube - Freshly Rebuilt Maserati V6

what do you all think? would it be better to use the hole where the oil pressure sender plugs in - that way it would (maybe...) fill the oil cooler and oil filter as well??? As the Q4 oil cooler is fitted with the outlets facing down - does it drain direct to the sump with gravity?

cheers, jim.

[arjunior45]

Can have not any opinion about. Sorry.

[arjunior45]

As the Q4 oil cooler is fitted with the outlets facing down - does it drain direct to the sump with gravity?

cheers, jim.

It might. But do not forget that near the filter there is a thermostatic valve that till 83,5 degrees C does not let the oil pass through the oil cooler and send it directly to the engine.

[AJ]

This is the way I've done it and do it for every oil change:

It doesn't allow oil back down to the sump - I filled the oil cooler & lines with oil and then didn't get to start it until the next day, so I checked - but it was full still. I'm not sure on the standard oil cooler but it might be worth unbolting it to make filling easier.

Fill engine with oil, take off rocker cover and make sure the top is well coated with oil.

Turn engine over by hand for as many revolutions as you can. Taking the spark plugs out makes this easier.

Also take off the oil return for the turbo so that you can see when oil has travelled through the turbo, then reconnect.

Then spin it on the starter to build up pressure.

Plugs in and start. Check for leaks.


I like the idea of pressurising up on the oil filter as per the video.

[wrinx]

What about assembly grease?

wrinx

[jimnielsen]

yep, going to use that as well...

[AJ]

If the cams are new you need to use cam lube, if they are already used you can use normal oil.

[#84]

I had never done it when I changed main and connecting rod bearing shells last summer at 90.000 km. All bearings looked fine. After reassembling the bottom of the engine I turned it carefully for 20 revolutions "by hand".

[jimnielsen]

#84, did you do this with the engine in the car or on the stand? - how did you turn it over?

[#84]

By turning the flywheel with a tool on one of the bolts. Engine in car, gearbox out of car.
When I think of it I can remember that I have rolled the car in gear on the ground at some oil changes. In both cases without spark plugs.

[SteveNZ]

That guy sure is cocky. Good method though

I would not worry too much about pumping the engine galaries full of oil if you dont have the means. If you do, then may as well. If you don't then you need to fill up the filter first..

I use a good amount of assembly lube and also fill the filter up. Crank it over with the plugs out till you get oil pressure and a bit more to get some oil through into the engine. There is no strain or stress on the bearings with the plugs out. The assembly lube should maintain a film on the bearings when its cranking slowly.

The Maserati engine maybe different to the average engine, I dont't know.

It would not be practical to fill the engine galaries through the oil pressure sender boss. The feed is just too small, it would take forever.

[jimnielsen]

Well. I'm going to give it a go.. and do a video too - all I need is a tall skinny guy with a grey shirt!

[jimnielsen]

I now have the head back, after having it refitted. I have replaced the broken valve, and all the valve guides, had all the valves re-seated. The face had to be machined 0.008" to bring it back to perfectly flat. Should be ready to go back on next week when I get the block back from the machine shop.

jimn~

[jimnielsen]

In the pic below, that comes from the Q4 manual - it shows the Q4 type engine on an engine stand that bolts to the side of the engine....My question is this...

Can these mount points be used to support the engine on an engine dyno? The one I have access to is set-up for engines that face north-south and so I need to be able to get the engine into the thing in that orientation?

[1NRO]

I don't know for sure but to me the engine would need held at the angle it's installed into the car, they lean forward a lot. There's a UK fella who has done a lot of dyno work with these engines would I could try and tap some info for you if nobody can clear the mist.

Nik

[mindus]

Yes you can.... but don't ask me more details ;)
http://www.zica.it/galerie.php?lan=eng&&m=galerie&&galid=18

[jimnielsen]

Thanks, Mindus..at least I see from the pics and links that you posted that it can be done! The question of whether to 'demount' the existing ECU or use a different one... is also answered - at least with his approach he is using an EFI Technology Euro 096 ECU (no - I've never heard of them...) Thanks for the post!~

[jimnielsen]

I thought I'd do a bit of a trial fit of the ('ebay') extractors as I remember that some were having trouble with the body of the extractors being too close to the valve cover...I am going to have them ceramic coated next week and if any adjustment of the extractors is needed, I'd rather do that now!

seems to fit fine!

[SteveNZ]

Can these mount points be used to support the engine on an engine dyno? The one I have access to is set-up for engines that face north-south and so I need to be able to get the engine into the thing in that orientation?

Yes.

The block is really an evolution of the older RWD Fiat twin cam block (Fiat 131, 124 etc). The original RWD mounts are still cast into the block. The RWD mounts have 4 studs, you may find that your block still has 2 or 3 of these studs/bolts present which have been used for exhaust bracket etc on the Q4. You can simply fit the extra studs that are not there or make do as it is.

[jimnielsen]

Finally got the block back today. I had it bored to suit the 84.5mm pistons and machined to make it flat. So far I have cleaned it, put in the oil squirters, the balance shaft removal 'kit' bungs and given it a bit of a paint!

[jimnielsen]

here it is..

[Juan AR155Q4]

Jim,
Just one bung must be fitted to remove balance shafts?
Have you got more info/pics on this?

What a great place to work you have...

[wrinx]

Looks like you've got better clearance than my manifold, no way would it fit without filing some of the head and double gasketing!!!

Word of caution, don't trust the stainless bolts for fitting the turbo, make sure you use some decent lock washers as mine rattled themselves off!

Looking very clean...

wrinx

[jimnielsen]

I needed to size up the piston rings properly - mostly just the top rings - The gap for the top ring is supposed to be .015-.016 inch - but they were actually .005 inch, so they needed a bit of work! I copied a 'ring filing machine' that I found a story about on the internet - it worked very well..

Juan.. there are two bungs for the balance shaft removal setup - one for the center bearing for each shaft. The bungs are a very tight fit - they hardly need the 'washer' and bolt on the end. I froze the bungs to get them to go in easier..

Wrinx.. when you say 'lock washers' you mean like simple spring washers - no?

[jimnielsen]

also.. I have fitted the pistons to the rods.. It is quite difficult to get the rod bottoms to separate from the main rod forging. Putting the piston pins in was a new experience - at least for me!

[wrinx]

Wrinx.. when you say 'lock washers' you mean like simple spring washers - no?

Yes, the complex OE Fiat/Lancia version wouldn't come off easily so I was forced to use what was kicking around.

The split washers are about 2mm thick and seem to have held ok so far!

wrinx

[jimnielsen]

Today I put the piston rings on, installed the pistons into the block, put the oil pump and rear seals on together with the sump, etc..

[jimnielsen]

A few more pics..

[Brul(tm)]

Looking great :cool:
Nice to see your progress through the various pictures, keep them coming ;)

Greetings,
Marc

[wrinx]

Piston ring clocking??? Wassatthen?

...and is that a 33 I spy in the corner?

wrinx

[jimnielsen]

Piston ring-clocking is simply moving the ring end gaps around so that any gas that gets past the gap in the first compression ring has to take the "long way around" to get to the gap in the 2nd compression ring - and then for the oil control rings top and bottom sections.

yes, that is a 33 lurking - its a 1990 1.7 IE that i bought on Ebay a few months ago for $311.00 (AUD) thats about 50p in British money.. Its not really worthy to share a garage with my Q4, but I need to prepare another 'house' for it before I can move it.. I bought it so that I can teach my 10 year old son to drive (we have a lot of 'space' here)!

jim ~

[wrinx]

Very lucky Son, to be driving at such a young age AND in an Alfa :cool:

wrinx

[jimnielsen]

Today, I put the head back on! Now it looks a little more like an engine!! The top cover is just sitting there to make it look pretty!

jimn~

[Xti]

Cool dad, my congrats Jim. Also for the great work you're doing with the Q4, I know it takes some sacrifices...

Greatings,
Cristian.

[RMB-Racing]

Nice, nice, nice! :tasty:

[jimnielsen]

Today I got the 'ebay extractors' back from JetHot Coatings - they have been ceramic coated to keep the heat in better! I will probably have the dump pipe done too (after I make one...). Fitted the extractors, turbo, engine mount/oil filter assembly etc. A couple of small 'issues' have arisen - one is that the oil outlet for the turbo is currently at the top of the turbo - so I have to sort that, two is that the outlet for the turbo is facing about 60 degrees higher that the oem one - I think I'd better put it into the normal position or the intercooler pipework may not work out as simply. The real issue I have is with the waste gate accutator..(how do you spell that??) anyway.. the accutator wont fit behind the turbo in the way it was originally configured - it hits the rear/side of the engine. I may have to use the accutator from the original turbo..

Has anybody else tried using this style of turbo on a Q4.. How did you handle this issue??

jim~

[jimnielsen]

two more...

[jimnielsen]

Put on the waterpump, turbo oil feed, "clocked" the turbo, put on inlet manifold, put on timing belt, pullys etc.

[SteveNZ]

I put a new actuator on my T3/4 turbo. Yeah it does not fit mounted straight as it's designed, it needs that angle for clearance. I got an actuator off a Fiat Croma turbo, cut the bracked off and used that, It basically fitted straight on then. However if you have a good OE actuator id just use that.

[arjunior45]

great pictures!
Carry on Jim.

[peter holst]

why aren?t you using a baffled sump - would think that it is a must have when racing?

[jimnielsen]

The sump already has 'some' baffles.. but i am open to suggestion - does anyone have a design ready to go?

[peter holst]

i want one too

[wrinx]

Didn't someone post pics of their home made baffled sump???

wrinx

[jimnielsen]

yep, it was ARJunior ( I believe ) but he only had two pics, and I could not see, from those pictures at least how it would help.

[Q4Jan]

Black&Red looks great Jim!

[arjunior45]

can this one be of any help?

http://www.seight.com/baffle.html

[1NRO]

A baffled sump to suit this engine should have one way trap doors inplace of the little upstands that are spot welded to the lower most sump cover reaching up onto the alloy casting with it's dividing partitions. One way in as much as to allow oil to flow towards the pickup easily but not so easily in the other direction. A nice lid with oil drain louvres would be good too. Keep oil levels generous and your good to go. Top, neat job Jim :biggrin:

Nik

[jimnielsen]

Does anybody REALLY know how much the weight on the horizontal bar in this picture is supposed to be? I know that it has to be 100mm along... but if i knew the exact weight I could make one of these devices.... currently I have the belt tensioned so that you can turn the long section through 90 degrees with out too much effort...

[jimnielsen]

More progress.. today I put on the center differential, alternator, power steering pump etc. I have removed the aircon compressor and moved the power steering pump down to the lower position. It took me a while to work this out, but if you do that.. you have to remove power steering pump pulley and turn it over to get the pulley to be in-line with the drive belt slot on the crankshaft!

I have two small problems..

a. in the pic that show how the center diff. bolts to the base of the sump, I want to be sure that I have the spacers (that are on the sump side) up the correct way with the 'hat' part of the spacer against the base of the sump? otherwise the plate will not sit flat. Have I done this right?


b. I have a 'part' left over.. it looks like mounting hardware to connect the center diff or gearbox, but I can't seem to find a place for it. Where does it go?

jimn~

[Kessu]

Here's a picture of that leftover part:
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/3605/p5100218.th.jpg (http://img81.imageshack.us/i/p5100218.jpg/)

Don't know about that spacer though...

[jimnielsen]

Thanks a million Kessu.. I can also see the answer to the spacer question from your picture.. they are in the same way that I have them!

Thanks.. jim.

[AlfaJack]

Thanks for the updates. I would just love to do something like this on mine.

[jimnielsen]

I have another question...

I need to take the engine as its now assembled, off the engine stand so that I can put the flywheel, clutch and gearbox back on.. Hmm..

what is the standard method for doing this. Its big and heavy and I can't get the engine crane close enough to the engine stand because their legs interfere with each other.

I am planning on using a block and tackle to lift the whole thing (engine stand and all) high enough so that I can get the engine crane legs under the system and then take the weight with that...

.. then I can remove the engine crane from the rear - but what then? do I put the whole thing up on a table or lower it down to the ground to put the gearbox (etc..) back on..

Hope the garage roof is strong! Any suggestions?

[AJ]

When I got to this stage with mine I used a block and tackle to lift if off the stand, then stood it on a pallet to do the work. Leave enough height to get thy flyhweel and clutch on, so either jack it up with a block of wood or leave the bell housing end slightly overhanging the pallet. Then you can get the gearbox on without having it all around again, plus you don't have to lift the gearbox too much - you can use a couple of trolley jacks. Makes life much easier!

And of course - only use a block and tackle if you have a suitable I beam or H beam!

[jimnielsen]

Thanks, AJ - I used the 'block and tackle' wooden pallet and overhang method like you described. No problems..

Today I put on the rear water hose. I am not using a 'T' piece style one. Put on the new belt for the alternator - I am not using the water pump pulley. Also put on the flywheel, clutch and gearbox.

[AlfaJack]

It is so beautifully simplified in this guise.
Where are you going to fill it from?

[jimnielsen]

Where will I fill it from....on the first pic, on the left hand side, and the end of the (now silver) metal water pipe is a 2nd (currently open) connection - that will go direct to the standard coolant filler bottle. Its easy to purge the air with an electric pump, because its down low (on the radiator hose) and you can just run it by turning on the ignition, without having the car running.

jim ~

[jimnielsen]

I am going to be using an additional knock sensor system. Where do you all think I should put the 2nd sensor... at (A) in the pic adjacent to the OEM sensor or at (B) where some other variants of this engine have it located..

thanks..

jim ~

[arjunior45]

Α

[1NRO]

I'd go with B, then there's one in the head and one in the block.

Looking good Jim, nearly ready to put it back in, once you adjust that tensioner bearing to sit on the head more completly ;)

[jimnielsen]

fixed the tensioner.. thanks Nik... Put engine in.. Its quite easy with a hoist. I was going to use a large hydraulic lift to put the engine back in, but i decided that I didn't want to have it that high in the air unsupported. I have to get a better method of dealing with that back mounting, however...

[jimnielsen]

Progress has been slow.. even small things seem to take forever.. perhaps it just Winter...

Anyway, I have started work on the exhaust. I am using 3" tubing.. its surprising how much bigger it seems than 2.5" tubing. The bends need a lot more space than before. I am going to make it 3" back to the location where the cats used to be. I am also going to ceramic coat this section as it runs close to lots of 'stuff'.

I have moved the coils and the pierberg valve to the side. Can someone check the coils pic and see if I have the right layout for the sparkplug leads. I have put some numbers on the picture where I understand that the particular cylinder has to connect.. is this right?

also.. with the pierberg valve.. is this connected the correct way round - where the small cutout on the base of the connector is aligned with the cutout in the connector its self?

also.. does it really matter which rubber hose goes to which side of the turbo (on the pierberg valve...)

thanks, jim..

[AlfaJack]

This should help:
http://www.performance-bg.org/forum/files/pierburg_573.jpg

[arjunior45]

what is this {in the cycle}?
And why did not you move the ignition modules next to the ignition coils? It will be easier to reach the modules

[jimnielsen]

Nick - its a temperature probe for the inlet manifold air temp display in the dashboard. I am going to use two other sensors connected to the data logger - one before the intercooler and one in the inlet manifold. The one in the pic is a 'third' so I can keep an eye on the inlet temp as I am driving..

I didnt move the ignition modules as it requires a bit too much cabling :)



ps.. do you have any pics of the coils with the cables still attached so I can check I have put them in right?

cheers, jim ~

[arjunior45]

not me, sorry.

[jimnielsen]

Finished the exhaust (finally..) Its a lot harder to make it fit in 3" tube than it looks. In the end, I think that I will have at least as much ground clearance as before!

Trial fit of radiator.. I have already modified the few things that I needed 'adjust' to fit this monster in.. Tomorrow I am going to look at where the electric water pump can be sited..

cheers, jimn ~

[AlfaJack]

It is a bit on the large side!

[Brul(tm)]

It is a bit on the large side!

Are you sure :D
I want to read about the results of this big thingie :eek:

Greetings,
Marc

[1NRO]

Nice down pipe fabrication Jim, your Tig welder / ing ? Loving all those sensors.

[jimnielsen]

No, I had a friend TIG weld the pipes together. I put in the sensor 'bungs' with my MIG welder. To make the exhaust I actually tack welded them in place with my MIG - then when I was happy with the whole 'fit' of the system - took it back off the car and had it TIG welded..

Now I have fitted the electric water pump - managed to do this ok with out the need to buy other radiator hoses...You simply 'suspend' the pump in the lower radiator hose - that provides the pump motor with nice vibration insulation.

Put on the panel that holds the lights etc - see that I have had to make a small cutout in that panel so that the top of the radiator can poke through.. I could also simply have cut the top off the radiator and TIG welded up the hole...

and see... the radiator DOES fit! I think it will keep the car much cooler..

in one of the pics there is a picture of a thermocouple that was fitted 'standard' to my car. I don't believe that it is connected to the ECU..do you think I can simply leave it out?


cheers jimn~

[arjunior45]

You can leave the thermocouple off. There is no oem connection to the ecu. But You can can use it for monitoring the exhaust gas temperature during remaping for example.

[SteveNZ]

That sensor looks like the overheat sensor for the cat. It just switches the dash light on.

[jimnielsen]

well, thats it! Its 'finished' - well at least enough for an initial test. The intercooler is not in place yet, nor its piping or the connection of the air outlet from the turbo. But its ready for its first test - Tomorrow!

[arjunior45]

go easy for the first test and good luck.

[wrinx]

Well done, hope all goes according to plan!

wrinx

[Gery83]

If you don't make a first start video, I must kill you! :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

[jimnielsen]

Camera is already setup, beer is in the fridge. No Start = No beer.

[jimnielsen]

Well, after a couple of false starts - a fuel leak, problems priming the oil pump, a bit of a coolant leak at the radiator, fast idle because I had forgotten that I hadn't connected the aux idle air supply valve.. but anyway at the first opportunity - then engine fired up and ran. But I have a problem or two.

a. mixtures are too lean, even for idle and revving to 3000 rpm on the hoist about 15 - 16:1. Will add some more fuel to the table tomorrow..

b. there seems to be a problem with the basic engine timing. I have been very careful to get the belt positioned correctly on the crank pulley, and on the cams. There are no belt covers so its VERY easy to see where the timing is at. However.. the car idles at 900 RPM on the 2nd timing mark (instead of the first) - AND the longer mark on the plastic timing cover is approx 5 degrees inside the notch on the very front pulley?? what gives. I can hear some low level pinging from this situation.

Could i have mal adjusted the basic timing in some way?

The cam wheels have been removed from the cams and replaced.. there is a bit of 'slack' in their positions. Could this account for the timing issue?

Any other suggestions? What about the cam timing sensor? I tried to put it back just like it was?

[arjunior45]

Having ICV {Idle Control Valve} disconnected you should have LOWER idle by 50 rpm! Not that fast as understood from what you said "fast idle because I had forgotten that I hadn't connected the aux idle air supply valve".

Are you sure you have not mixed the camshafts? Maybe I'm writing rubbish I do not know.

[jimnielsen]

As it turns out, the 'noise' was actually coming from the power steering pump not having got all the air out of its system! - Engine is running brilliantly!

[1NRO]

I'm loving the sound of it needing so much extra fuel, it's going to be a kick ass motor. Drop the oil and filter have a look to see all's well, refill and load those rings. Well done Jim, it's worth the hard work now eh?

Nik

[wrinx]

Excellent...happy for you Jim!

Looking forward to the first report of it running, especially the turbo :D

wrinx

[jimnielsen]

I have adjusted the fuel table so that it now runs at 13:1. I basically added 1.2x to the existing fuel table values to achieve that.. now it runs great! I ran it for approx 15 mins to full temp (it takes a long time to warm up with 11 litres of coolant...) Sounds great - actually very smooth and quiet. That will be it for running for a while till I get the intercooler pipework sorted.

The following is the first start video - after we got our mistakes sorted..

this is the first time it was tested with fuel & spark - so its first opportunity to run. As you can see it starts first time. I had to stop it almost immediately and reconnect the aux air idle valve.


YouTube Down For Maintenance


After this - we ran into the 'noise' issue that turned out to be just the powersteering pump - then with that sorted it went great!


Thank you to all who have provided advice!

[jimnielsen]

just a note on fitting an electric water pump to a Q4...

the typical place to put these things is in the lower radiator hose...(they don't self prime). With a Q4 - the line from the filler tank is on this "hose" (on the T piece behind the car in a standard car). You need to move this connection to a "T" piece in the lower radiator hose but before the intake to the electric water pump. Otherwise the flow from the water pump forces (a lot of) water up into the filler tank. I had to re plumb for this as I'd for gotten that I had run into the exact same issue with my last racecar...

[jimnielsen]

The intercooler pipework is now "complete". Tomorrow I will see it it actually "fits"

:)

[AlfaJack]

That will look good in there. Thanks for the update.

[jimnielsen]

Fitted the intercooler pipework. I think it has come together ok.

jimn~

[arjunior45]

Nice work Jim, congrats.

[Ditlev]

Wow, looking very nice! .. :)

[Xti]

Great job.
Congratulations!

[Brul(tm)]

I guess we all can say, this is a job well done :smile:

Greetings,
Marc

[jimnielsen]

Well thats that then!

put the bonnet pins in (I had to remove the standard bonnet retention system for the radiator to fit...) Rigged up a temporary air filter / ducting.. put the wheels back on!

Its going to the track next week. Will take a video.

cheers, jim.

[arjunior45]

you could remove this one too.

[jimnielsen]

I'm taking the Q4 to Calder park raceway tomorrow where they are having an 'open practice' day! It will be the cars first real run I am hoping to do at least 50km. This will be its first and last time on ULP - then its on to E85 ~

cheers jim..

[AlfaJack]

Nice, look forward to seeing how it goes.
Any rules for running the engine in?

[arjunior45]

That's a view I like! I do not mean the cars of coarse!!!
Do you accept immigrants?

ps.
good luck

[wrinx]

Not sure about your new rear downforce device...but looking forward to your report of Calder Park.

wrinx

[Evodelta]

I hoped you remapped it well before running it..... ??

[jimnielsen]

Calder testing went well - did more than 100km on the track.... That should have bedded the rings in! Collected a mountain of data and video - but the summary is that we got it to run at about 12.7:1 AFR WOT - reasonably flat across the rev range. This is hard when you are still using the breakpoints in the original maps (but with different values in the tables..) Too much of the air density breakpoints are outside the range of where the car is driven (on the track). The new turbo went well - I toned down the overboost map but it still was making 1.25bar in 5th at 6000 RPM and 208kph. It was quite a cool day (15 c). Was not able to get the coolant over 70 c. This could prove a problem.

had a small boost leak, a small coolant leak and a problem with the center driveshaft bearing - but all in all - a great day!

Car even did its fastest time at this track - at < 80% effort.

data and video to follow..

This is the cars first and last run on pump gasoline - I am going to convert it to E85 in a week or so - then back to Calder for another mapping exercise - then finally to a dyno for a more precise calibration. And that that - well thats the plan..

thanks to everyone who came to help out on the day!

[AlfaJack]

Nice one Jim.

Strange how your coolant only went up to 70. That new rad and pump must be very very efficient!

Looking forward to the videos!

[Juan AR155Q4]

Are you still using the oem thermostat?

[1NRO]

Sound most excellent Jim, for sure the rings are snug now.

How might you compare the response of the car now to how it used to be?

I must say the thought of the fuel change has me waiting most keenly. Do they tamper with the blend much over there?

The ebay turbo has lasted longer than some would have you believe! Had a waggle of it? I'm thinking you need to be saving some pennies for a fancy turbo though, something like a GT30 will fly.

Nik

[jimnielsen]

.. I am not using the a thermostat at all. you cant really use the original Q4 one with an electric water pump - as it also controls the bypass water flow in a way that does not work so well for these pumps. I am using an old thermostat of Wrinx's with the thermostat 'bits' cut out. I may need to buy the electronic controller for the water pump that uses the water temp to control the impeller velocity. It was a cold day...and i was not driving the car very hard at all. A warmer day and 100% effort would (I think..) bring the temp into the 90 degree range.

..The car has much better response now, actually - even with limited pressing on the pedal, especially limited in 2nd gear, as I was making sure to keep the revs down to ~ 6k. I am planning on running it to 7.5k in future.

I am going to be using 'race E85' which is simply a blend of 15% 98 Octane ULP (RON) and Ethanol from sugar cane that is made locally. Its guaranteed to be E85 - no more and no less.

I will check for turbo bearing wobble when I get a chance to go over the car next week. If nothing else, the Chinese turbo should provide a good baseline for what trim of turbo is required.

[1NRO]

So a nice responsive engine to date, excellent. How are your det detection systems performing? Much det count?

[jimnielsen]

Here is a snapshot of the data from my first tests. Fuel is still 'somewhat' rich. The temp reading is from the 'pre intercooler' sensor. The post one is acting up a little. I have the data from it, but the calibration needs work.

[wrinx]

Interesting stuff!

Are the boost readings right, looks like you're only getting boost over 4000revs?

wrinx

[jimnielsen]

yes, they are right - I plan on getting about 1.4 bar all the way to 7500 RPM. Early indications are that this will be easily achieved with the T3/T4 turbo. perhaps even more interesting is this graph that compares temperatures from the pre-intercooler side of the system to the post-intercooler side (inlet manifold). As you can see the intercooler acts as a heat sink quite well. I am using identical bosch AT sensors. One is in the inlet manifold its self - the other is just prior to entering the intercooler (after the turbo).

The Y axis is temperature in Degrees c - the X axis is time.

Also - does anybody know where I can buy a new 'centre bearing assembly' - Are they still available as a new alfa part?

[wrinx]

I plan on getting about 1.4 bar all the way to 7500 RPM.

That's what I would want, makes sense imho :)

wrinx

[na15575]

no jim there isnt available as a new alfa part

it is the same with Lancias but i cant find it in any place

[Gery83]

no jim there isnt available as a new alfa part

it is the same with Lancias but i cant find it in any place


The bearing's part number is the following:

KOYO 62052Rsc3.FGGA2

[jimnielsen]

well.. this could be a 'problem' then. Gery.. is that part # JUST for the bearing and not the rubber bit/

jim ~

[Gery83]

well.. this could be a 'problem' then. Gery.. is that part # JUST for the bearing and not the rubber bit/

jim ~

Yes!

It is impossible to get a new one.
You need a new bearing. And a bushing specialist to put the new bearing into the old 'case' and fill it up with rubber...

[mindus]

If your bearing is ok and only a rubber part is worn, then you might want to 'replace' that rubber with custom one (e.g. with something like 'glue' for front window)..

[Gery83]

If your bearing is ok and only a rubber part is worn, then you might want to 'replace' that rubber with custom one (e.g. with something like 'glue' for front window)..

Just forget it... :)
That is the McGyver way of things...
There are specialists for such jobs, you don't want to mess with something that important in the drivetrain...

[Evodelta]

no jim there isnt available as a new alfa part

it is the same with Lancias but i cant find it in any place

I don't think it is, it looks different to me in the picture and the Lancia integrale one is made by SKF.
Still no longer available though....... :cry:

[SteveNZ]

Its hard to tell the condition of the hanger bearing there from the photo. Howevver they all usually have a bit of movement up and down. If the bearing is ok and its still solidly mounted to the hanger (not seperated completely) I would not be too concerned.

It will be interesting to see the temperature curve pre intercooler at different boost and RPM etc. It will give a good indication to the efficiency of that turbo. A pressure sensor in the ex manifold would be good to have.

[jimnielsen]

In the manual - it shows that the universal joint is held in by circlips...no such luck with mine, I am afraid. So I won't be able to remove it and replace the center bearing. :(

I am going to have to simply strengthen the rubber surround with urethane (this is quite common practice on 116 type alfas.. and I did it on my last race car.)

As far as center bearings go - there are a lot of 25mm inside dia. center bearings that would work fine on the Q4. Mazda make one for the B2000 van that I think would fit fine with the simplest of tweaks. But - as you can see - I am not going to get to test this.

jim ~

[jimnielsen]

Steve.. here is a graph that shows both of the temps (on the same scale). It show 3rd, 4th and 5th gears. Boost peaks at 1.27 bar at 5500 rpm in 5th @ 206 kph. Temp keeps rising for a further 4 seconds after throttle off. to 92 degrees. peak temp in the inlet manifold is 42 degrees. I am going to fit my waterspray kit - It will be interesting to see if it actually makes a difference - or its all just 'talk'..


cheers, jim ~

[wrinx]

In the manual - it shows that the universal joint is held in by circlips...


Has that been bodged by punching around the circumference or is it the factory solution?

wrinx

[wrinx]

Steve.. here is a graph that shows both of the temps (on the same scale). It show 3rd, 4th and 5th gears. Boost peaks at 1.27 bar at 5500 rpm in 5th @ 206 kph. Temp keeps rising for a further 4 seconds after throttle off. to 92 degrees. peak temp in the inlet manifold is 42 degrees. I am going to fit my waterspray kit - It will be interesting to see if it actually makes a difference - or its all just 'talk'..


I think you've become the forum test mule :redface:

wrinx

[Steve Webb]

Is it the autospeed waterspray kit? I fitted one of those onto the std intercooler: Waterspray install (http://www.berlinasportivo.org/Technical/intercooler/intercooler.php)

[1NRO]

Just buy a new UJ, better to do that than try to reuse the one in there anyway. Use a die grinder with a sharp edged stone (re-dress when rounded) to grind away the staking and your good to press them out.

[SteveNZ]

I agree with 1NRO. Fit a new cross, you'll damage it pressing it out anyway. Hopefully there will be a slot so you can just fix it with clips next time. If not you'll have to peen the metal over like that. Make sure you dont get the shaft out of phase when you put it back together.

[jimnielsen]

No..its all too hard. There is nothing wrong with the bearing - just the rubber - I have packed it with urethane (pic to follow..). It will last for years. Then - or if it does fail - I will take the whole shaft to a driveshaft engineer and have it ported professionally. The whole thing is going back in tomorrow.

Steve (webb) - I am using the nozzle from the autospeed kit.. the rest is my own.

jim ~

[jimnielsen]

I have 'repaired' the center bearing with with urethane. I think it will be just as good as a new one (that I can't get anyway...). A complete refit - cutting off the uni ends, re-splining the shaft, welding, balancing etc would have cost several hundred $.

Anyway - I will soon be finding out its its as good as new - as next weekend I am taking the car to Winton for its first real race weekend! Also, I have drained the fuel from the tank and tomorrow I am going to see if it will start and run on E85. It had better - as I am buying 140 litres of it... :).

I am going to increment the part of the fuel table that is (about) above 1 bar and 4000 rpm by 50 % (in green in the pic...) and the rest by 40 %. Should be a good place to start. My WB Lambda will still convert the AFR reading to a gasoline AFR so that a WOT AFR will still look like 11 - 12.5:1. I have 'private practice' at Winton on the Friday to sort this all out :)

[SteveNZ]

On straight methanol or E85, what real AFR do you actually need to run?

[jimnielsen]

Steve - obviously there would be some debate about the most suitable AFR's for E85 - but here is one view....

Mode ........... Gas .... E85 ...... extra % (mass) ... extra % (flow)
Stoich .......... 14.7 .... 9.765 ........ +50.5% ................ +42%
Lean power ... 13.2 .... 8.47 .......... +55.8% ................ +47%
Rich power .... 12.5 .... 6.975 ........ +79.2% ................ +69%

So far I have drained the car of gasoline - and added 20L or E85. The car started and ran fine on it - Idling at about 13.1:1 (GAS AFR (so about 8.4:1 E85 AFR)). I have decided to 'sort out the fuel' on a dyno instead, actually - so I am taking it to Beninca's dyno on Wednesday.

[SteveNZ]

So we get to see what sort of power it will make! Awesome :)

[jimnielsen]

yes we will! anyway.. (hope its more than the stock 190 at the flywheel - that must be about 150 at the wheels..) I have a question that you (or someone may be able to help with...)..

.. I have noticed that the car is running rich at WOT at about 3-4000 RPM. It seems that it is being caused by the values in the 'WOT Enrichment table' - that pump in up to 23% more fuel if you keep the pedal flat.. I need to dial this out - has any body tried removing the values in the WOT enrichment table and just using the needed fuel level in the main fuel table instead? The table works as a multiplication factor..so the 1.23 at 3199 and 3803 RPM tells the ECU to add 1.23 times the amount of fuel called for in the main fuel table - AT ANY BOOST LEVEL..

jim~

[arjunior45]

the main fuel table is for constant throttle position {gas pedal at a constant angle}.
'WOT enrichment table' is % corrective map and it is something like the old 'acceleration pump' in the weber {and other} carburetors. Try to accelerate your Giulietta without this pump and you can see what happens.

[jimnielsen]

yes, i get it - but its making the AFR's too rich :) - and my Giulietta actually had eight fuel injectors for its four cylinders.. & no carbs :).. So as you come through 4000 (ish) RPM @ WOT (planning to keep the thing at WOT till 7500) - the AFR's momentarily go rich as the 23% is implemented (down to 9:1)- but then it sorts its self out as more sensible values are in the tables later. but the car bogs down (a tiny bit..) because of that.



jim ~

[arjunior45]

8 f. injectors? wow!
try to adjust the % WOT map, not to remove them - I think at least.

[SteveNZ]

I think the WOT map is a bit of extra safety for the standard engine. There is no real harm running it extra rich on WOT for a road car as you don't hit that very often. note the maximum values are around 3500 rpm, right where the OE turbo will be most efficient and able to pump in max boost and where the engine will achieve max torque.

Accelerator pump needs to work on part throttle too, not just WOT, Its usually taken from the "acceleration" of the load sensor. At a guess, in this case probably the TPS.

I would set the values in that table to 1

[jimnielsen]

Dyno Results..

I took the car to a dyno in Melbourne, today. Its at Beninca motors who have dealt with Alfa's for many years. My purpose was simply to make sure that the AFR maps for the car , now running on E85 were where they needed to be... I could have done this at private practice - but its reassuring to have another opinion (and a different AFR meter...). As it turned out the maps were pretty good - just needing a bit of tweaking really..

The car made 250hp (rear wheel). It could make more in its current trim (between 50 - 100hp more) but for some reason we were not able to get boost over 1.2 bar sustained over 5000rpm. I am not sure yet whether this is because of:

a). a problem of configuration in the pierburg boot control valve table. in the ECU.
b). lack of flow capacity in the turbo its self.
c). the wastegate being pushed off its seat.
d). too weak a spring in the wastegate actuator
e). timing issue (too retarded).

hmm. something to work on. I actually suspect (a).

Overall, i was happy, as the car is now running smoothly on E85 - as does not seem to have any trouble starting. But, I am keen to be able to make 1.5bar boost out to 6500 rpm.

jim ~

[arjunior45]

what about APS?
Oem one has 1,5bar max reading.

[jimnielsen]

That's an interesting thought Nick, I will bear it in mind. The highest reading I saw for boost was actually 1.45bar (at low rpm...). But as I don't want to go over 1.5 bar - the current sensor may do..

[Stuntz]

Ok this is a problem with the maps for the pierburg ! :) Why dont you ask well the tables are written for a different turbo that you have since you are driveing only on track and the MAP will cut off at 1.5 bar i reccomend this solution.

http://www.geocities.com/chmwatson/FAQs/mbc.html

Greets

[AlfaJack]

This is what wrinx and I have except ours only have two connections, one from the turbo and the other to the wastegate. The other pipe is just blocked.

Monster boost control thread (http://forum.berlinasportivo.org/showthread.php?t=1097&highlight=manual+boost+controller)

[wrinx]

This one:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/POWERTEK-BOOST-CONTROLLER-MITSUBUSHI-EVO-6-7-8-9-10_W0QQitemZ140337672365QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Cars Parts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?

wrinx

[1NRO]

Certainly looks to be strong from that read out. Good result Jim.

Do you have a before and after inlet / exhaust temp reading when changing to E85? Difficult to compare over different days and locations but maybe it's an obvious difference?

[jimnielsen]

Nick, Alfa Jack the rear anti roll bar thread is here..

http://forum.berlinasportivo.org/showthread.php?t=1313&highlight=rear+anti+roll+bar

in my opinion - having used it quite a bit now, it will be fine for a street car. It both reduces understeer and controls body roll.

Nik. I wasn't driving the car on the dyno so i could not see the exhaust temp gauge from where I was...and its not logged to the datalogger. I will have a close look this weekend at Winton and report back..

If i do have to get a new boost controller, i will probably go for the Turbosmart EBoost 2.

http://www.xspeed.com.au/shop/product_info.php?products_id=1568&osCsid=24a3f005fbf55495332a3a5dd31d2905

[jimnielsen]

As it turns out the problem with "low" boost was simply the values we were using in the 'over boost limit' table that controls pierburg valve... problem solved..

well at least that problem....

Another small issue that I am having is 'compressor stall' (or surge) at low RPM in 2nd gear when full boost is demanded by a request for WOT...Anybody had similar issues?

Nik. The exhaust temp was running a consistent 600 degrees C. Thats measured 6" after the turbo. The turbo body was 450 degrees C after a 'cool-down' lap

[SteveNZ]

Another small issue that I am having is 'compressor stall' (or surge) at low RPM in 2nd gear when full boost is demanded by a request for WOT...Anybody had similar issues?

Yes, it can happen in some applications.

Fixes;

Dont drive it like that

Reduce the boost at that RPM point(s).

Get an anti surge compressor cover or modify the one you have

Respec the turbo for a higher RPM boost threshold. i.e. modify the turbine

Respec the compressor wheel (usually a smaller one)

Make the engine consume more air at that RPM point, head porting, cams etc.

Bleed/purge extra volume needed with some sort of fancy blow valve.

Dont worry about it, replace the tubo when it dies (can be the cheapest solution)

[jimnielsen]

One interesting thing that I have noticed in the mountain of data that we collected from Winton is that the car makes its peak power right after the warm up lap...I am going to fit a waterspray unit to the car before I run it again - so it will be interesting to compare if that can stop that happening.. or at least reduce it..

[SteveNZ]

How do you measure the power output? Can you log the engine temp and inlet temp on the same graph?

[jimnielsen]

Steve, the power output is derived mathematically using the cars Cda, rolling resistance, mass and gear ratios. Its really a good method of seeing if the power of your car is increasing or decreasing over different days or runs on the same day, but I wouldn't rely on it as a means of determining what the exact power output it is (though many people do :) - )..

but yes, you can log any of the parameters that you can collect data for and display them on the same graph..Here is one that shows inlet manifold temp v's power..As you can see as inlet temp rises power falls..

jim ~

[arjunior45]

so, according to this graph you need to keep inlet temp lower than 45 degrees, am I wrong?

[jimnielsen]

no, you're not wrong at all. More generally, it would seem that keeping the inlet manifold temp low is important. Perhaps with the water spray I can keep it closer to the 45 degree figure. The ambient temp at the time was approx 15 degrees C.

[SteveNZ]

Do you have the pre intercooler temp figures yet? That will show if the intercooler is inadequate, needing the water spray, or it could be the compressor wheel. Or something else.

[jimnielsen]

Steve.. unfortunately the connector for the sensor came off the pre intercooler temp. The only data I have from that day that includes both temp sensors is this... but its from a diffferent run than before..

cheers, jim ~

[jimnielsen]

water spray fitted..

No, I won't be using the ice-cream container on race days..

The system uses 1 litre of water every 3 mins... so 4 litres of water will be fine for my purposes..

[#84]

Hmm, I suppose you have mounted the car in the wrong direction on the spray nozzle :)

[AlfaJack]

When is it set to active?

[jimnielsen]

The spray is meant to face forwards.. its a very fine mist and will be blown back onto the cooler..It is activated with a switch at this stage. This will suit well, as the sprint events that I use the car for are only a few laps - typically five. I will turn it on after the warm-up lap, and just let it run till its out of water.. 5L of water should last 15 mins. That is long enough..

[Xti]

...I am interested in peoples opinions on pre-priming the oil system on the Q4 Engine. I am planning on using this basic methodology..

YouTube - Freshly Rebuilt Maserati V6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDWkx-XNpHc)

.

Hi, Jim!

In the end which procedure did you followed for oil pump pre-priming? I didn't knew that should be done, thought the pump does not need that. Thanks!

Cheers,
C.

[jimnielsen]

The standard oil cooler system has two connections. I disconnect the LOWER one and then pump engine oil into the connection (towards the engine) with the EMPTY new oil filter in place. This pumps oil right up to the cams and also to the oil pump. It still takes about 30 seconds of cranking (in 3 x 10 second goes) to get decent oil pressure. You need to have an assistant or the job can get messy. Put a finger over the free oil cooler hose while pumping the oil to keep the oil in (mostly) but let the expelled air escape. I pump in about 1.5 litres.

I remove the plugs and (of course) the electrical connection to the injectors for this. That way you get much higher cranking speed and faster oil pressurizing.

jim..

[Xti]

Thanks for the reply, Jim.
Do you mean the connections ON the oil cooler or it's connections to the engine support (which I assume)? We have tried the first case but these won't get off...

Greatings,
Cristian.

[jimnielsen]

yes - not where the hoses join onto the cooler - but at the other end of the hoses underneath the oil filter...you pump the oil into the fitting that you remove the lower hose from.. Not into the hose itself...

[Steve Webb]

Thanks for the reply, Jim.
Do you mean the connections ON the oil cooler or it's connections to the engine support (which I assume)? We have tried the first case but these won't get off...

Greatings,
Cristian.

Alfa had the idea of thread locking these connectors on, I don't know of anyone who has managed to remove the oil cooler pipes from the original oil cooler without damaging it.

[wrinx]

I have :lol:

I removed the entire cooler from the car, disconnecting the pipes at the engine end.

Then placed the cooler in a vice, protected with strips of wood. Then gently removed the bolts with a half turn forward and quarter turn back...like tapping a thread.

The problem is steel and aluminium fusing, so it is hard work...I still needed to clean the threads up afterwards and parts had disappeared, but it survived!

wrinx