View Full Version : oil radiator fan?
arjunior45
14-05-09, 17:53
what do you thing of a fan for the oem oil radiator?
I saw more than 100 - 100 degrees yesterday evening and this morning in Athens traffic and I do not like this that much. There was not any chance to cool engine down as my {and others} max speed was 12 kmh. Took me an hour and 12 min for a distance of 16 km!!!
What was the water temperature like?
wrinx
I thought of that option too :).I found the right fan for the job.A fan from an Alfa 33 air conditon radiator .
arjunior45
15-05-09, 08:08
'normal'!
more or less 92 degrees, but never over 97 - 98 degrees at 24-26 ambient temperature. And this weekend is going to be hotter, around 30 deg ambient temp.
I must check if the oil radiator is 'functioning' and I wander if there is some kind of 'thermo by-pass' valve where the hoses for the radiator are. Long time ago we had a problem with such a valve {on a 75 Turbo} which was blocked in 'open' position and oil never was reaching the radiator. I need to 'study' the manuals first but I think that is 75 had such a valve there must be one on Q4 too.
If there is not one, I believe I'll go for the fan and I need to find which one.
arjunior45
15-05-09, 08:10
I thought of that option too :).I found the right fan for the job.A fan from an Alfa 33 air conditon radiator .
that's great axaQ42!!!
Do you have any picture of this mod? Did you mount it 'after' the radiator?
Something is wrong if the oil temperature goes too high. But 100 C is not much. At 120 C you must be carefull. I have driven my Q4 many laps ion different race tracks with standard cooling equipment and what causes problem is the water temperature. The oil goes up to 120, but not more.
arjunior45
15-05-09, 12:25
It's not the temp that bothers me, although 110 degrees with a +/- 10% margin goes to 120 degrees. It's the oil pressure which is going down {little less than 1 bar} with 100 - 110 oil temp AT IDLE speed that makes me worry. And in Athens you can stay easily at idle for more than a minute, a lot more than a minute. Yesterday I was stopped {at idle} for + 13 sec - I counted them - and seeing oil pressure lower than 1 bar it's not my best. With oil temp at 90 C or lower I do not have any problem at all with the oil pressure. That's why I 'need' to lower the oil temp in city traffic.
In race track you do not drive the car with the engine at idle speed, so 120 C I believe it won't matter that much.
Hope I was clear and not confusing.
Oops. A standard question: What oil do you use? What oil pressure do you have when you start the car in the morning (~10 C) and run it at 2500-3500 rpm?
Depending on your answer to that question I would suggest different cures.
arjunior45
15-05-09, 13:19
I use selenia racing 10w/60 and changed them three days ago.
Starting the engine at idle I have 4 bar and goes up to + 5 bar at 2500 - 3000 rpm , ambient temp 22 C. {10 C is winter for us}. Don't have any problems during winter time {9 - 15 C ambient temp}.
At 65 -70 C oil temp, pressure is + 2 bar at idle.
With oil temp lower than 90 - 95 C has 1 bar {little more} oil pressure at idle {+2,5 bar at 2500 rpm}.
Only at + 100 C {oil temp} oil pressure starts to go under 1 bar at idle - did not measured the pressure at 2500 rpm - and 4 bar at 4500 rpm.
Bit strange, it may be your climate but in the UK I'd think something was not right if the oil temperature is getting so high but the water temperature is normal. If the engine is cool/normal then the oil should follow. The only time I've seen 100deg oil temp was when the radiator was not working well (half the fins missing!).
Also I wouldn't get too hung up on oil pressure. So long as there is some pressure showing you have oil travelling around the engine and at idle the stress is minimal. What is more of a worry is the high temp may be causing the oil to degrade although you are using a high spec oil so it should be ok....but I'm not an expert!!!
wrinx
arjunior45
16-05-09, 09:48
Bit strange, .... If the engine is cool/normal then the oil should follow. The only time I've seen 100deg oil temp was when the radiator was not working well (half the fins missing!).
wrinx
I'll check the radiator too, after fixing my 'high' idle speed {again}.
Yes, it's strange to me too having oil temp higher than the coolant one. But oil temp goes down very fast when the car is moving and oil pressure goes at + 1 bar {at idle} right away.
I think I'm going to mount the oil rad fan as soon as possible and connect its wiring with the oem radiator one, starting at 86 C.
Need to find the 'Alfa 33 air condition radiator fan' mentioned by axaQ42, and seams a little bit difficult as there were not that many 33 with air-con here in Greece. Did not find any on e-bay too, so far.
I'll check the radiator too, after fixing my 'high' idle speed {again}.
Yes, it's strange to me too having oil temp higher than the coolant one. But oil temp goes down very fast when the car is moving and oil pressure goes at + 1 bar {at idle} right away.
I think I'm going to mount the oil rad fan as soon as possible and connect its wiring with the oem radiator one, starting at 86 C.
Need to find the 'Alfa 33 air condition radiator fan' mentioned by axaQ42, and seams a little bit difficult as there were not that many 33 with air-con here in Greece. Did not find any on e-bay too, so far.
Just buy something like these:
NO.1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/93-KAWASAKI-ZX6-RADIATOR-FAN-ZX-6_W0QQitemZ370195424388QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcyc les_Parts_Accessories?hash=item56315de484&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A1171%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A131 8#ebayphotohosting)
NO.2 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2003-2004-Kawasaki-ZX6-ZX636-ZX-6-636-Radiator-Fan_W0QQitemZ380123093942QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorc ycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item58811a1bb6&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A1171%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A131 8#ebayphotohosting)
NO.3 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Spal-Fan-6-5-Pusher-12V-30100403-New-VA22-AP11-C-50S_W0QQitemZ130306253086QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors _Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item1e56dba11e&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A1171%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A131 8)
Hi!
Actually i didnt mounted it yet so i have no pictures.
You say you have 4 bar on cold engine?Thats quite low.I have almost 7 bar at idle.
I use castrol RS or from now on Valvoline VR1 5-50w.I used selenia racing but i threw it away becouse when i used it the engine was far more louder and the pressure the lowest in compare to the other oils(agip sint 2000,castrol RS,castrol EDGE,valvoline VR1)
arjunior45
16-05-09, 13:29
@ axaQ42,
you have maximum oil pressure {7 bar} at idle speed? That's great for you!!!
@ gery83,
never cross my mund to use something from bikes in this car. Great thought. All I need now is to measure the space behind the oil radiator till the plastic mud guard.
I'll find one from Kawasaki!!!
arjunior45
17-05-09, 07:08
something came in my mind yesterday evening.
Kawasaki parts are definitively 'tuning' parts 'recommended' for Alfas too.
On my Bertone I use the 'piston pins' from Kawasaki as their ext diameter are the same with the oem one but the weight of them is almost - 40%.
Definitively I'll go for a Kawasaki radiator fan.
@ axaQ42,
you have maximum oil pressure {7 bar} at idle speed? That's great for you!!!
@ gery83,
never cross my mund to use something from bikes in this car. Great thought. All I need now is to measure the space behind the oil radiator till the plastic mud guard.
I'll find one from Kawasaki!!!
It was obvious for me. :)
Manufacturers don't use so small fans in cars, with so high quality.
The best thing is that these small fans were designed for this (cooling radiators), so they must do the job easily.
arjunior45
17-05-09, 10:39
It was obvious for me. :)
Manufacturers don't use so small fans in cars, with so high quality.
The best thing is that these small fans were designed for this (cooling radiators), so they must do the job easily.
I believe they will do the work.
According to an old post, the oil radiator dimensions are 140x215 mm. Tomorrow I'll check the free 'space' behind the radiator and start looking for the fan. If thinks go well then I'll see if it's possible {if will have any affect} mount a fan also to the intercooler too.
ps.
There is an expretion in my country that says :
- 'Now we have a priest we should bury two or three people!'
I believe I've start thinking like that.
arjunior45
25-05-09, 07:57
well, I finally bought this fan {see picture}. It's from a Yamaha R6 and dimensions are : diameter = 14 cm and high = 5 cm.
I believe that there are two options concerning this fan's wire connections.
The first one is to connect this fan in parallel with the 'first speed' wire of the water rad fan so that this fan will go on at 92 degrees of water temp. But I have some concerns.
Water gets hot {90 degrees} sooner than the oil, so I'll have this fan {oil rad one} working even when there is not any need for.
The other option is to mount a proper 'fan switch' {?} at the oil rad exit with one contact only and at 80 degrees {there is one which opens at 87 deg and closes at 83 deg}, if I'll be able to short out an arrangement like this!
I'm thinking to go for the first option for a start, as it's easier to make the wire connections needed and, if oil temp still goes high to go for the second option.
What's your opinion?
well, I finally bought this fan {see picture}. It's from a Yamaha R6 and dimensions are : diameter = 14 cm and high = 5 cm.
I believe that there are two options concerning this fan's wire connections.
The first one is to connect this fan in parallel with the 'first speed' wire of the water rad fan so that this fan will go on at 92 degrees of water temp. But I have some concerns.
Water gets hot {90 degrees} sooner than the oil, so I'll have this fan {oil rad one} working even when there is not any need for.
The other option is to mount a proper 'fan switch' {?} at the oil rad exit with one contact only and at 80 degrees {there is one which opens at 87 deg and closes at 83 deg}, if I'll be able to short out an arrangement like this!
I'm thinking to go for the first option for a start, as it's easier to make the wire connections needed and, if oil temp still goes high to go for the second option.
What's your opinion?
Why don't you use the 2-stage switch on the water-cooler?
Simply put a relay to one of it's outputs.
arjunior45
25-05-09, 18:15
that's exactly the 'first option' I mentioned. I think I'll use the 1st speed wire-stage from the '2-stage switch on the water-cooler'.
But as far as I've noticed the oil temp will be as much as 60 degrees when the water is at + 90 degrees, at engine 'warm-up'.
Any way, as soon as possible I'll post pictures of this and my comments.
My choice is to use manual switch for water cooler witch overrides OEM one (so you do not lose the 'automatic' OEM switch also) and a separate one for oil cooler (do not have this one though). This way I can keep the water temp. below 90 degrees and if I keep water temp below 90, oil temp does not exceed 90 degrees. This is in summer at around 25 degrees of air temp. while siting in traffic jams.
Some tips from my experience.... When I stop in a traffic jam, I turn on the fan no matter that water temp has not reached 90 degrees. This way oil temp does not rise. If I forget to turn on the fan and let water temp exceed 90 degr., oil temp jumps up like a rocket to 100 degr. the same minute when water temp exceed 90 and an automatic relay kicks in... This way manually overriding water radiator fan I am able to keep my engine safe from high water and (what's more important IMHO) high oil temp... But our summers are around 25 degrees, so it's far from Greece or any other hot country in the south...
Similarly manual switch helps to monitor water and oil temp.during 'active' driving in the city, etc.
M
As a quick, but late comment to the oil pressure, I normally read 6-7 bar where you say you read +5 bar. The oil I have used the last 8 years is Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40. Before that Agip. I will now change to 60 grade Shell oil becaue of tuning. So, if your'e pressure reading is correct then either your main/con.r od bearings are worn or the oil pump is not work 100 %.
I just had a talk to my cousin how cracked a con.rod bearing on his 4 month old Honda S2000. He first noticed it on the high oil temperatures. There is no ooil pressure gauge on that car.
He had a failing S2k engine after 4 months from leaving the factory?
Thats probably a first than, the things are reliable as hell.
Or did he push it to hard before running it in?
He had a failing S2k engine after 4 months from leaving the factory?
Thats probably a first than, the things are reliable as hell.
Or did he push it to hard before running it in?
I am not surprised if he pushed it to hard before running it in. The rear tyres are already worn out. He bought a new Focus ST 2 years ago and had two drive shaft failures ... in short time. I am just happy he doesn't follow my advices and blames the failures om Italian quality :)
arjunior45
26-05-09, 10:01
As a quick, but late comment to the oil pressure, I normally read 6-7 bar where you say you read +5 bar. The oil I have used the last 8 years is Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40. Before that Agip. I will now change to 60 grade Shell oil becaue of tuning. So, if your'e pressure reading is correct then either your main/con.r od bearings are worn or the oil pump is not work 100 %.
I just had a talk to my cousin how cracked a con.rod bearing on his 4 month old Honda S2000. He first noticed it on the high oil temperatures. There is no ooil pressure gauge on that car.
well some notes from the workshop manual about oil pressure at 100 degrees C :
1} at idle : 0,82bar
and
2} at 4000 rpm : 4,1 bar.
I have 'little less' than 1 bar at idle / 100 C oil temp and 4 bars at 4500 rpm / 100 C.
Pretty close to the standards, don't you think?
Did not find any notes for higher oil temperatures. Never the less I have not had any problems with weather at lower temps. Now that went over 30 C {34 C today} I've noticed the problem and I certainly want to cool down the oil temperatures and probably I'll go for a lower water radiator fan switch soon.
If you see 6-7 bars at 4000rpm / 100 C oil temp I think you should have a look at your 'oil pressure relief valve' that it's working properly. You should know that high oil pressure is dangerous too, as low oil pressure.
A friend of mine had a crankshaft failure due to high pressure, long time ago. One of the plugs for the lubrication channels went of and instantly he lost all the oil pressure while he was traveling at high engine speeds. You can imagine what happened next. We {he, all our friends and I} use bolts instead of the sealy alu plugs at all costs.
Nick,
It appears to be a clever solution with the fan, even though the pressure is correct according to the standard. At 100 deg C oil temperature both your and the workshop manual figures seems to be normal, even though I don't read that temperature very often: 60-80 in normal tempo and 110+ on the race track.
As I said, the oil pressure values I asked about were for conditions short after start up. 100 deg C take a while to reach.
The screws for plugging the crankshaft oil channel is good, but how on earth do you mount it? I was about to do it with a crankshaft for my Giulietta, but the machine shop that grinded and hardend the crankshaft said that the tool would probably break if you tried to make threads in the hardened surface :( Can you give an advice?
Juan AR155Q4
26-05-09, 13:06
well, I finally bought this fan {see picture}. It's from a Yamaha R6 and dimensions are : diameter = 14 cm and high = 5 cm.
I believe that there are two options concerning this fan's wire connections.
The first one is to connect this fan in parallel with the 'first speed' wire of the water rad fan so that this fan will go on at 92 degrees of water temp. But I have some concerns.
Water gets hot {90 degrees} sooner than the oil, so I'll have this fan {oil rad one} working even when there is not any need for.
The other option is to mount a proper 'fan switch' {?} at the oil rad exit with one contact only and at 80 degrees {there is one which opens at 87 deg and closes at 83 deg}, if I'll be able to short out an arrangement like this!
I'm thinking to go for the first option for a start, as it's easier to make the wire connections needed and, if oil temp still goes high to go for the second option.
What's your opinion?
With very little electronics, you can use the oem oil temp sensor to control the fan.
arjunior45
26-05-09, 14:49
Nick,
It appears to be a clever solution with the fan, even though the pressure is correct according to the standard. At 100 deg C oil temperature both your and the workshop manual figures seems to be normal, even though I don't read that temperature very often: 60-80 in normal tempo and 110+ on the race track.
As I said, the oil pressure values I asked about were for conditions short after start up. 100 deg C take a while to reach.
The screws for plugging the crankshaft oil channel is good, but how on earth do you mount it? I was about to do it with a crankshaft for my Giulietta, but the machine shop that grinded and hardend the crankshaft said that the tool would probably break if you tried to make threads in the hardened surface :( Can you give an advice?
why do you need to harden the crankshaft of a Giulietta? Older {f.ex. Giulia's} crankshafts has no need of.
I believe you could do the threads before any other 'job' and then, afterwards, go for the grind and the harden process. You can use Loctite high temp threadblock - or something like that - {I think there is one for + 1000 C} too afterwards.
arjunior45
26-05-09, 15:02
With very little electronics, you can use the oem oil temp sensor to control the fan.
do you have any idea what to use?
Do you know if the 'oil temperature sensor' works at the 0 - 5 Volt range?
I have something for the 'intercooler' water injection system that use the 'signal' from the throttle position sensor to feed the water pump and it's adjustable too. This I could use! All I need is to make a second pcb.
The more I think of it the more I like your idea. Many many thanks.
An interesting topic - I noticed yesterday whilst driving the car that oil temperature creeped up to just over 90C and I then got stuck in traffic, which got me wondering about a fan for the oil cooler. I was getting bang on 1 bar at that temperature at idle.
I thought about mounting a fan behind the cooler to suck the air through (as I don't think I will have enough space to mount it in front due to the ducting and obscuring the air flow.
I have a couple of 5" fans from some old servers which I will try, I'd guess they will pull 1.6-2A.
For driving them - could take it off the water radiator fan, but I don't think that would be the best solution. I have an SPA oil temp/pressure gauge, and you can set external alarms for when pressure or temp <>= given criteria, so I might just set one for when oil temp > 80 then have it drive a relay to power the fan, as the max load on the external drive from the gauge is only 100mA.
I'll see if I can knock something up in the next few days.
arjunior45
31-05-09, 12:10
A
I thought about mounting a fan behind the cooler to suck the air through (as I don't think I will have enough space to mount it in front due to the ducting and obscuring the air flow.
For driving them - could take it off the water radiator fan, but I don't think that would be the best solution. I have an SPA oil temp/pressure gauge, and you can set external alarms for when pressure or temp <>= given criteria, so I might just set one for when oil temp > 80 then have it drive a relay to power the fan, as the max load on the external drive from the gauge is only 100mA.
I'm going to mount this fan behind the cooler, just as you thought! There is not much space in front of the cooler.
Set the temperature at above 83,5 degrees as this should be the oil temperature when the oil thermostat opens.
arjunior45
31-05-09, 12:21
ps.
this is the 'circuit' I'm going to use connecting it to the oem 'oil temperature sensor'.
Well I almost got it finished yesterday, the fans mount perfectly (I am using a 12" wide cooler, and just under 5" high) so 2 fans next to each other fits fine. I just used some stiff wire to mount them.
The SPA gauge has an external alarm which switches +12ve when it is set, so I just wired this up to a relay to power the fans. This will just switch off or on at a given temperature, so I may need to add a timer if they go off/on/off/on too much.
I tapped off the main water rad fans for the constant +12ve, the oil cooler fans in total draw a little under 2 Amps. I separately fused them anyway.
I'm awaiting pins for the connector for the SPA gauge (for some reason they don't include these, they are on request :rolleyes:)
I'll upload photos later, but for now here is a diagram:
Nice work AJ :cool:
Iv no idea how hot the oil gets seeing as the sensor has never worked :rolleyes: Perhaps I should fix it :doh:
I don't think it would have got and stayed that hot apart from the fact we had been doing full throttle mapping on it, and on the return journey came into a village and had to stop or crawl forwards for ~15 mins. If it hadn't just spent the previous half an hour at full throttle it might not have been so bad, but for a relatively cheap and simple modification I hope it helps.
I had a nother idea, how to control the fan, the easiest way.
Simply get a suitable thermo-switch at tis location, on the picture.
931
arjunior45
02-06-09, 06:22
I had a nother idea, how to control the fan, the easiest way.
Simply get a suitable thermo-switch at tis location, on the picture.
931
Could you measure the thread at this location? I think it will be easier and without messing around with car's electronics.
Maybe I'll go for this option.
Could you measure the thread at this location? I think it will be easier and without messing around with car's electronics.
Maybe I'll go for this option.
M14x1,5
arjunior45
03-06-09, 06:47
M14x1,5
Thank you very much Gery.
Quite small for a thermo switch. I'll see if there is something available at the 83,5 - 87 range.
My fans are finished, and working. For me it was easy to rig it up to the SPA gauge - it in fact goes to ground when the over temperature alarm is set, not high, so disregard my circuit diagram I will re-do it.
I have set the gauge to drive the fans at 80C, so I am waiting for a hot day (aren't we all) so that I can test with the off and on to see if they will work.
I am also almost finished making proper ducting for the coolers using black perspex - very easy to work with.
arjunior45
29-06-09, 16:16
still did not mount the fan - need to solder the supports for the fan on the cooler to keep a stable distance from it, but
a} I found a thermo-switch with M14x1,5 to mount at the location indicated by Gery. It opens at 87 / 82 degrees!
and
b} I checked the 'oil pressure sender' with a very accurate analog meter and guess what? The sender was not the oem one {0 -8 bar} but a 'Veglia' 0 -6 bar one and it was giving wrong 'readings'! It was reading 1,5 bar less at least, at oil temps 80 - 105 degrees!!! Now I 'have' + 1,5 bar at 95 degrees, at idle!
In any case, I'm going to mount the fan in any case. Still do not like this 105 degrees.
+1.5 bar @ 95C is good, what oil are you using?
arjunior45
30-06-09, 19:18
Selenia Racing 10W-60
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