View Full Version : Balance-shafts
Hi!
757
I know some of you guys removed, or planned to remove the two balance shafts.
Can any of you tell me what are the advantages, and disadvantages of this?
How can it be done? Just remove them, and plug the holes?
What happens to the knock sensor?
Will it generate false ignition-fault to the ECU?
Thank you!
There is a centre bearing on each balance shaft which is fed oil from the centre main journal (feeds rod big end journals to) so a blocking up of the supply to these bearing can only help the crank and rods. The bearing takes a hammering over the years and often is very worn (at least any i've taken out where) which only lesser the oil pressure as the years pass. This bearing isn't available new any longer unless one from another application I've not bothered to find can be fitted. So i believe it's worth removing the shaft and blocking up this oil feed.
The potential for the belts and bearings involved in this assembly to fail and pull the cambelt off is very real and another worthy reason to remove the balance shaft setup.
The turning torque of a newly built engine would be less without this setup though I've never proven it physically. It's not likely to be worse though is it? The MOI is improved to if a aluminium spacer is made up to replace the drive pulley on the crank snout. The pulley is a heavy item.
There's been loads of engines run without this setup without problems.
jimnielsen
15-03-09, 20:48
Nik - so you mean replace this bit (with the arrow) with an Aluminium spacer? Thats an Idea that I had not thought of!
jim.
You know me Jim, full of ideas like that :smile:
The belt end has a pressured feed also, this comes off the oilways that transfer oil to the head. Not an area to be having anything other than the best supply to. So the correct removal of the balance shafts helps this a little bit.
Have you checked your oil rail on the cam caps? Often a bit loose on the joints.
Sorry I've not emailed you back yet, it's to do in the next emails I tackle. I've had a lot on.
Nik
Just had a look at your picture. Whats the v drive on the trigger wheel for? aircon?
Just had a look at your picture. Whats the v drive on the trigger wheel for? aircon?
That one drives the aircon which in turn drives the power steering. Although where the AC is removed it will drive direct to the PS. Think it needs some different brackets for this to mount the PS pump lower...
Have you checked your oil rail on the cam caps? Often a bit loose on the joints.
I've got a wobbly one :redface:
Can't remember what they're made of...is it brass? Might have to try and solder it up when I replace the shims :(
wrinx
Aircon drive, hmmm. That's got me thinking. Must be a whole different offset on the auxillary pulleys with that in there. I'm a peasant and haven't been able to afford an aircon car with this engine fitted :cry::smile: I can see a purpose for myself from that nugget of info, ta muchly.
Wrinz There made from "metal" with some joints brazed and others crimped. I solder all joints on that, I'm a worrier :biggrin: That and I just love a sadistic task.
jimnielsen
15-03-09, 22:49
You don't need a different bracket to connect the steering pump to if you remove the aircon... The original bracket has been ingeniously designed so that it can be used in either case. You can see the different positions from the pics.. the top position is if you have aircon, the middle one is for if you dont. My car originally had an ac pump but when i put it back together I an removing it, so working out how this actually operates has been vital!
:)
jim..
Wrinz There made from "metal" with some joints brazed and others crimped. I solder all joints on that, I'm a worrier :biggrin: That and I just love a sadistic task.
Mmm, might try a lead solder then, no method of brazing here :(
Sorry for OT :tapedshut:
wrinx
Hmmm, I think I just found a piece of the jigsaw. I'm presuming the aircon sits below the P/S pump?
Now where can I get my hands some of those castings / auxillary bits for swapsys or even just to look at? anyone in the UK?
You don't need a different bracket to connect the steering pump to if you remove the aircon... The original bracket has been ingeniously designed so that it can be used in either case. You can see the different positions from the pics.. the top position is if you have aircon, the middle one is for if you dont. My car originally had an ac pump but when i put it back together I an removing it, so working out how this actually operates has been vital!
:)
jim..
My mistake...we had even had a thread about this recently:doh::doh:
Must be because we just bought an MX5 and my mind is elsewhere :redface::redface:
There is a centre bearing on each balance shaft which is fed oil from the centre main journal (feeds rod big end journals to) so a blocking up of the supply to these bearing can only help the crank and rods. The bearing takes a hammering over the years and often is very worn (at least any i've taken out where) which only lesser the oil pressure as the years pass. This bearing isn't available new any longer unless one from another application I've not bothered to find can be fitted. So i believe it's worth removing the shaft and blocking up this oil feed.
The potential for the belts and bearings involved in this assembly to fail and pull the cambelt off is very real and another worthy reason to remove the balance shaft setup.
The turning torque of a newly built engine would be less without this setup though I've never proven it physically. It's not likely to be worse though is it? The MOI is improved to if a aluminium spacer is made up to replace the drive pulley on the crank snout. The pulley is a heavy item.
There's been loads of engines run without this setup without problems.
Any other opinions?
Do you have pictures of it?
How to block the oil feed?
How to farbicate a guiding bearing?
Please send pictures!
Thanks!
arjunior45
16-03-09, 18:15
Well, as far as I've heard, removing the 'balance shafts' the only disadvantage is that you will have more vibrations coming from the engine. I do not know if this can have any impact to other parts or if this will worn any other parts sooner.
In my car for example, the ?silent blocks - pads?, part number '60807399 ' ? see http://forum.berlinasportivo.org/showthread.php?t=863 - were gone and the impact was engine to knock on the quick rack ?servosteering? and destroy {bend} the alu casing.
I?m not saying that something like that can happen removing the balance shafts!
And I do not know if removing the balance shafts can have any impact to the knock sensor.
From the other hand, I do not mind at all to feel more vibrations from the engine as long as this the only disadvantage removing the balance shafts!
When I?ll change the camshafts belt {this summer} I?m going to remove just the balance shafts belt and see what happens. It will be nice to find a DIY something ? a warning light maybe or something similar ? to monitor the knock sensor but I have not found anything that can do this job so far.
If everything will be ok, then I?ll remove the hole system. And if this will have a positive impact to the oil pressure, as 1NRO said, then for me is a ?must go?.
Regards
Nick
ps
I would like also to know how to block the oil feed.
Well, a few weeks ago I'd of been showing you the kit I designed but for reasons that would take a long time to explain (I'm happy to privately) I can't right now push the sale, you'd have to wait. The one you may of seen retailed recently is my design and unless you buy it from me it's a copy. It's a simple looking set of parts made to exact tolerances (it needs to be bang on) I mention this as I know they are close to being put back onto the market without any gain for me, the designer and investor. Touchy subject for this pleasant forum so my appologies for bringing it up.
Nick, aftermarket knock sensors are very inconsistant and someway short of what a factory sensor is, that is the opinion of "the experts" not just mine. They are a compromise at best due to not being developed for the exact engine it might get fitted to (its a very fine frequency unique to each engine type. I've never heard of there being any issues with detonation due to the removal of the balance shafts. The "Greek Dragster" delta (greg) doesn't run any balanceshafts and he's definately testing the det levels :tasty:. It's standard practice on tuned engines to remove the balance shafts or at least disable them, mitsubishi's , subaru , honda , 20v fiat engines etc. many engines never had them and did / do just fine (early fiat twin cams and cars like the croma turbo)
I spoke with someone today who was talking about reducing his oil viscosity in his delta after removing the full balance shaft assembly, he said his cold start pressure was way different to it used to be.
Please send some pictures, how to do it!
How to block oil feed lines, how to make a guiding-bearing, etc...
Guys!
Any details?
I can't believe nobody of you knows the answers to these questions... :doh:
arjunior45
22-03-09, 19:33
I have not removed the b-s yet, so I can NOT be of any help. Sorry.
Nick
arjunior45
22-03-09, 19:40
you could try here to see if something comes up.
http://forums.delphiforums.com/evoforum/messages/?start=Start+Reading+%3E%3E
Nick
you could try here to see if something comes up.
http://forums.delphiforums.com/evoforum/messages/?start=Start+Reading+%3E%3E
Nick
Thank you!
I think I'll write to Guy Croft.
arjunior45
24-03-09, 10:59
keep us posted - informed if this is correct.
When you will remove the shafts could you measure the weigh in kgr?
Nick
Hi!
How can I remove (replace) the center balanceshaft bearings?
Thanks!
You need to find some replacements first......
arjunior45
09-04-09, 15:10
Hi!
How can I remove (replace) the center balanceshaft bearings?
Thanks!
what do you mean for 'center balancershaft bearings?
Do you mean the No 6 {bushing} in this picture?
If you want to remove it just because you are removing the balancer shafts, then DON'T.
There is a hole in them {5mm I believe} that oil the balancer shafts and you will lose oil pressure. Just block those holes in some way or just move the bushings to the side for 6mm so that the bushing it self block the hole.
Nick
ps.
I'll send you an e-mail tomorrow about the balancer shafts.
You need to find some replacements first......
I have a perfect other fiat block with good bushings.
I want to put those in my Q4 block.
what do you mean for 'center balancershaft bearings?
Do you mean the No 6 {bushing} in this picture?
If you want to remove it just because you are removing the balancer shafts, then DON'T.
There is a hole in them {5mm I believe} that oil the balancer shafts and you will lose oil pressure. Just block those holes in some way or just move the bushings to the side for 6mm so that the bushing it self block the hole.
Nick
ps.
I'll send you an e-mail tomorrow about the balancer shafts.
I decided not to remove the shafts, but to replace these bushings (No.6).
Haow can I replace them correctly, and remove them without any damage?
Thanks!
And I'm waiting for your mail. ;)
arjunior45
09-04-09, 17:33
I decided not to remove the shafts, but to replace these bushings (No.6).
Haow can I replace them correctly, and remove them without any damage?
Thanks!
And I'm waiting for your mail. ;)
sorry, I do not know that. If they are forced to enter in position I think it will be difficult if not impossible to remove them from the FIAT block without destroying the margins.
Nick
I remove them with this http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/balanceshafttool004.jpg which measures http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/balanceshafttool003.jpg and http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/balanceshafttool002.jpg They come out no more damaged than when they were in the block.
I remove them with this http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/balanceshafttool004.jpg which measures http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/balanceshafttool003.jpg and http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/balanceshafttool002.jpg They come out no more damaged than when they were in the block.
Thanks a lot!
Tomorrow I'll make a tool like this!
Just make sure you check the size on the bit that fits into the bearing. I've never been lucky enough to remove an undamaged bearing so it might be a tad tight in them, don't force it into the decent bearing.
Nik
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