what do you think of this?

[arjunior45]

Its a mod made to Grales 16V.
I'm very temped for such a mod in my Q4 too. What do you think?

Nick

[AlfaJack]

So this is individual coils and an amplifier? What car may those parts come from?

[Gery83]

Its a mod made to Grales 16V.
I'm very temped for such a mod in my Q4 too. What do you think?

Nick

What is this good for?
Is it any better than the factory solution?

[#84]

If you run the engine at high boost levels, there may be a limitation on the spark from the standard coils, but I wouldn't change for this reason if I hadn't expereinced the problem.

The 155 GTA has this solution of the said reason.

I experienced a spark failure some months ago which spread to the other cylinder sharing the same coil and that made the car totally undriveable and it almost ruined my new Sachs sinter clutch since I tried to get out off a heavy traffic crossing on two cylinders - In that case individual coils would have helped.

A reason to change to individual coils is if you laborate with fast burning fuels requiring late ignition. The standard configuration is a wasted spark system where there is a spark in every cylinder once a revolution. The "wasted" spark could be dangerous in such a setup. But then it is not enough with inndividual coils, you also neeed indvidual firing. Check with RP-lab for such a solution.

/A

[arjunior45]

So this is individual coils and an amplifier? What car may those parts come from?

NOTE :
This mod is for IAW P8 {used on Q4, Evo2 and FIAT Coupe 16VT} NOT for the Integrale 16V/Evo1.
yes, it is 'individual coils' and an 'ignition control module/unit'.
The module {Bosch 0 227 100 211} is the one used on Audi A4 / A4 Quattro {'97 - '01} / A8 / A8 Quattro {'97 - 99} / Golf IV / New Beattle / Passat GLS ...
Do not have right now in my hands the data for the coils.

The guy who gave me this note says that "seams to have a totally different engine. revs in an 'other' way". And to tell you the trough he is someone that I trust.

I'm thinking seriously to go for this mod as the summer will be the proper time to 'mess' around a little with my car.

Any other comments?

Nick

[#84]

It sounds interesting. If the engine behaves different/better I would suppose it is due to the reason that the coil gives a better spark. Do you have a clue what amplification the different coils have?

A little bit off-topic, but I have started to test and sell a battery performance unit for trucks in Scandinavia. The impact on the battery lifetime, capacity and cold start properties seems to be undoubtfull. However the unit does also induce a high frequency ~1,5 V amplitude which is supposed to have a positive impact on the ignition process on petrol engines. I haven't had time to evaluate the ignition performance in detail, that is why I am interested. I have also some other ignition ideas in the pipeline and I would say it is a shame to just take some VW-parts off the shelf to tune your Q4, when the world is full of more advanced concepts that are not too complicated to implement. :) Send a PM if you are interested in the discussion of alternative solutions.

By the way, the battery unit have so far reduced the average fuel consumtion in my 147 1.6 TS with 4-5 % in an A-B-A-B test over 7000 kilometers!

[arjunior45]

to tell you the trough, the only field that seams 'Greek' {or Arab} to me is electricity! So, if you say that something is in a certain way I can only agrie with you and trust you. But I can not comment or discuss any 'alternative solutions' as I probably can not understand them. But thank you very much for the offer.

Regarding ignition amplification I'm a fond off. From my experience, in my good old Bertone, replacing the oem ignition system with a Bosch amplifier - not an electronic ignition - {used in the Alfa Montreal and some other German cars - Porsche 911, the first one} and making the connections that were needed, I've noticed maybe too many advantages.
A better {definitively} cold start, even with the car covered with 40-45cm of snow.
No need to 'feed' with gas the engine starting it.
Longer life for the spark plugs and the contacts, which 'have more than 30.000 Km and still going.
Less gas emissions ...
But most of all, I have NOT any more the typical cough from the dirty sparks after even a long time in idle in city traffic. And the engine spec are not for street use - high compression pistons and wild cams.
Can't tell anything for fuel consumption because I do not know {and I do not care that much}.

If this mod {separate coils to each cylinder} can give me the 'half' of the benefits such as the Bertone's ignition amplification I think ... I could live with the shame taking some VW-parts off the shelf to tune my Q4.

Need to go now, but if I can find any info of what amplification the different coils have, I'll post it here.

Nick

[arjunior45]

well, I spoke with this friend of mine and he told me that a better arrangement from the oem one {two ignition modules - two ignition coils} is to have 4 {four} ignition modules and 4 {four} ignition coils, probably the stick {coil-on-spark} type one. So we could have a separate ignition module and coil for each cylinder.
He also told me that we could use another couple of the oem Marelli BKL3BD modules - in parallel connection - to have the 4 modules and probably the FIAT 20V models coils.

Any comments?

[Evodelta]

Any comments?

More of a request really, lets see some pictures of your Bertone! :cool:

[arjunior45]

quite old photo but thats what I have here

Nick

[Gery83]

quite old photo but thats what I have here

Nick

Oh SHIT! :biggrin:

I would give away my Q4 for such a beauty... :rolleyes:

[arjunior45]

this 'beauty' is the ugliest {almost} and the most aggressive frontal Alfa ever made!
Makes a lot {really a lot} of noise, almost too hard suspension, too hard steering wheel at parking maneuvers, no heat at all during winter time, too much heat coming from the exhaust tube under the gas pedal - already burn a couple of shoes soles - too slow windscreen wipers and you can sniff the petrol from inside the car!
But who cares! She is the funniest ever Alfa to drive, in wet{?} or dry condition. You can make it go anyway you like as long as you're not afraid to keep the gas pedal to the ground, even when the 'nose' point at 90 degrees at the direction you 'should' keep on the road.
And most of all, she is easier to work with. You can see everything and adjust everything in no time. Spare parts easier to find {now days} and almost everything available. No plastic mechanical parts at all.
...

Nick

[Gery83]

this 'beauty' is the ugliest {almost} and the most aggressive frontal Alfa ever made!
Makes a lot {really a lot} of noise, almost too hard suspension, too hard steering wheel at parking maneuvers, no heat at all during winter time, too much heat coming from the exhaust tube under the gas pedal - already burn a couple of shoes soles - too slow windscreen wipers and you can sniff the petrol from inside the car!
But who cares! She is the funniest ever Alfa to drive, in wet{?} or dry condition. You can make it go anyway you like as long as you're not afraid to keep the gas pedal to the ground, even when the 'nose' point at 90 degrees at the direction you 'should' keep on the road.
And most of all, she is easier to work with. You can see everything and adjust everything in no time. Spare parts easier to find {now days} and almost everything available. No plastic mechanical parts at all.
...

Nick

Yes, I love them!

The father of a girlfriend of mine used to have a yellow one, with a 2000ccm racing engine. It could go over 200kph! :O

[arjunior45]

Yes, I love them!

The father of a girlfriend of mine used to have a yellow one, with a 2000ccm racing engine. It could go over 200kph! :O

204 {actual}kph at + 6900rpm with the 2000 dif. But I do prefer the 132kph at 7300rpm with 6/41 ratio dif.

[arjunior45]

So this is individual coils and an amplifier? What car may those parts come from?

well, this is the idea and my very very first next mod.
With FIAT Coupe 20VT coils.

[AlfaJack]

Interesting mod. I do like my spark plug cover though and I guess that would have to go to make space..

[arjunior45]

Yes, I think it should go.
I do not know if I'd like the 'new' look more, we shall see.

[#84]

Cool modification with the Coil On Plug arrangement. The C.O.P.'s do always have better spark, that is why they are fitted direct to the spark plug - to not risk any short cuts from the cables since the voltage is higher.

I will test my new ignition system on a Seat Toledo, which has a similar wasted spark system, within some weeks. If it works fine and there is no piston meltdown :), I will build one for the Q4 as well!

[arjunior45]

why to have a piston meltdown? I can't see any reason.

[arjunior45]

well, the second pair of the ignition modules {and their alu support} arrived earlier this week and the 4 {5 to tell the trough} coils on plug from FIAT Coupe 20VT will arrive {hopefully} next week. So I hope to complete this mod soon.

But I need an advice.
What should I do with the two aluminum supports of the ignition modules. One is brand new and the one on the car is oxidized. Tried to polish it with no acceptable results.
I'm thinking to paint them both in black or in red. Do I need a primer first or is there any other paint I can use?
Which is the paint some of you used to paint the spark cover {for example}? Does it last or not?

[jimnielsen]

there is lots of info on the web about how to clean pitted aluminum - but your heatsink does not look to bad...

please take lots of photos of this mod.. I am interested in it as well..


cheers, jim !~

[arjunior45]

I had an inspection of where I could place these ign. modules.
I'll be forced to move battery or replace the air filter box with a cone {not that clear it will be sufficient}.

[Juan AR155Q4]

I wouldn?t paint them, as heating exchange capability will be reduced.
You could anodize them.

[SteveNZ]

The main reason more coils are used is to allow a longer dwell or "charge" up time.

With electronic ignition (unlike an old points system) the dwell can be kept constant with RPM. The downside is, as RPM increase there may not be enough time in between each fire to get a full charge in. If this happens, spark duration and quality etc will drop off and you may get inaudible missfires or even full audible missfires in extreme cases.

Unless you have an issue with the original system I don't see any benefit changing to coil on plug. If anything its a more expensive and higher maintenance system

[arjunior45]

Easier maintenance and better accessibility is my first concern - issue, not to mention the oem high voltage wires/cables {for the spark plugs} which can easily start having 'problems' {short cuts}.
With this set up will be easier for me to check if a part {module or coil} has a problem and less effort to change any defective part - with out the need to rise the car on a port. Replacement of a defective part can be done even at the side of the road.

I do not know if there are any other real benefits {spark quality} as I have not test this set up yet, but I will soon.

[arjunior45]

as promised to Nick and Jim, here are the wire connections for this mod, using :
- 2 pairs of 2 ignition modules. Each pair of ignition modules is 'M. Marelli AEI 450A' with two 'M. Marelli BKL3BD' on it.
and
- 4 stick coils, 'Bosch 0221 504 006 765', used on every 5-cylinder FIAT engine {N/A or Turbo}.

Explanation.

1} The 'ground' connected to pin 2 of each ign. module and each stick coil, goes to connector ?G60b? on the engine {ground engine} on the hall sensor.
It will be better if this wire is connected to battery 'earth' too or to the chassis.

2} the +12V wire for the 'stick coils' {Pin 3} is the same as for the 'ign. modules' {Pin 4} and comes from the 'ignition control relay - S28'

Note:
I still need to check if the Bosch stick coils have not any interference issue with the Alfa cam cover, and if the bl@@@y post employ will be able to find my package I'll check them this weekend.

If you intend to use other brand 'stick coils' then make sure for the pin connections-output. Might vary from the one mentioned above.

[na15575]

any idea for where we can find the conectors for the marelli module and the coils?

[jimnielsen]

Thanks for the comprehensive explanation!

[arjunior45]

any idea for where we can find the conectors for the marelli module and the coils?

probably from Τζαβάρα Γ. {210-9215814}. For sure he has the coils connectors.

[arjunior45]

check clearance with Bosch 0 221 504 014 'stick coils' {5 cylinder N/A FIAT engine} as at postal office did not managed to find my parcel with Bosch 0 221 506 765 coils. Hope they will pay for it!
No clearance problems but I do need to make an alu supporting bracket.

Pictures of how they will look. No 'Alfa Romeo' logo for my engine, unless I'll found the cam cover with Alfa logo, from series 1 engine.

[cuore_sportivo_155]

if you want a stronger coil, look for the coils used by the 155 8v twin spark. these coils are also listed in the bosch performance parts catalog, and are in fact the strongest they have....

[arjunior45]

if you want a stronger coil, look for the coils used by the 155 8v twin spark. these coils are also listed in the bosch performance parts catalog, and are in fact the strongest they have....

thanks for the note, although I do not think I'm going to pay for a third set of coils.
This would have been useful a couple of month ago.
Besides in this 155 8v coil there are two output {the one for the second coil} and I do not like to have it open to the air.
I'll stick to the one already bought and see how it goes.

[cuore_sportivo_155]

the 155 8v has 2 coils to fire the 8 plugs. you would just need 1....

[arjunior45]

I knew that and both the coils {in one pair} are connected to each other. That's why there are two output on the 'first' coil - one for the proper spark plug and the second one for the 'second' coil. Wrong?

[na15575]

i don't remember exactly how the pairs go
but i know that the system is a misfire spark to

[Gery83]

What do you think of this solution?
1819
1820

[jimnielsen]

How many coils can it drive Gery? 4?

jim.

[Gery83]

Yes, there is the pdf above the picture!
Have a look at it!
It's not the same coil as fiat uses, but I think the circuit can be modified a little bit.


How many coils can it drive Gery? 4?

jim.

[jimnielsen]

I think this is the perfect ignition module for use with an aftermarket ECU such as an Autronic or Motec. It makes it very easy to move from wasted spark to a 4 coil solution (if you have 4 coils...)

[Gery83]

Or why don't you use the modules this way?
These stick coils draw less current than the OEM ones, because their third pin is their trigger, the other two are used to supply the power. But I'll get a datasheet soon for the FIAT 20V ones. I think one ignition module can handle two of these stick coils, like on the picture below. Any comments? Opinions?
1822

[Gery83]

Does anyone have a datashhet for Marelli BKL3BD?

[Gery83]

So finally managed to get some info about my COP-s, from fiat 20V engine.
And some pictures from some weeks ago. Right now, the engine is not in it's place... :)

184918501851

1852

1853

[jimnielsen]

I'd like to do this COP conversion as well..... but I am going to make sure that you are able to get it to work first!!


jim ~

[Gery83]

Alright!
I'll tell you when I'm finished.
It will surely work, because I'm not giving up until it does... :D


I'd like to do this COP conversion as well..... but I am going to make sure that you are able to get it to work first!!


jim ~

[CloverleafQ4]

Alright!
I'll tell you when I'm finished.
It will surely work, because I'm not giving up until it does... :D

Any progress?