View Full Version : Small Problem at Sandown Raceway
jimnielsen
18-01-09, 08:12
well, A big problem really, As you can see and hear in the attached video at 3:15 seconds in - the car loses most of its power. A quick check found that the spark plug electrode in #3 had melted (presumably due to detonation). In the video you can see that boost is well controlled at approx 1.05 bar during the previous two laps but suddenly it spikes to 1.3 bar and stays there. From the sound of the engine this is as a consequence of the problem - not the cause of it. I have checked the timing and the cam belt tooth positioning - they are still fine - but I have not had time to do a compression test yet. Will do one tomorrow.....
video...
YouTube - sandown09
Bugger :( Is this with your new turbo?
Odd that it suddenly spiked to 1.3, does your map allow for enough fuel at that boost? Perhaps that melted the plug?
...and what's that annoying squeak?
wrinx
jimnielsen
18-01-09, 19:36
No, it still has the standard turbo. The 'squeak' is the metal on metal of the rear harness mountings. I think that the problem happened before the car went to 1.3 bar boost. Normally, the car cannot make that level of boost at those revs. it seems to me that something about the failure mode caused the extra boost to show up, but was not the cause of the failure. I could be wrong. I am going to give it a compression and leak down test this morning.
jimn~
jimnielsen
18-01-09, 23:40
I have searched the site, and cannot find an answer to this question -
what are the typical compression test values found in a healthy Q4 engine?
Thanks - jimn~
cuore_sportivo_155
18-01-09, 23:40
how rich are you running? going slightly richer reduces the chance for detonation... maybe one injector isn't delivering quite what it should?
cuore_sportivo_155
18-01-09, 23:42
I have searched the site, and cannot find an answer to this question -
what are the typical compression test values found in a healthy Q4 engine?
Thanks - jimn~
can't say, depends on the cams, timing and valve play. make sure all cilinders are producing the same pressure, that's most important...
jimnielsen
19-01-09, 02:01
Compression Test results..
1 # 172 psi
2 # 158
3 # 0
4 # 131
Also did a leak down test, which showed 1 & 2 to be ok, 4 very marginal and 3 total failure. I suspect a failed head gasket between 3&4.
fuel ratio is approx 11.5:1 at WOT. I will test the injectors before I put it back together.
jimnielsen
19-01-09, 05:32
I have made a little progress.... Should have the head off tomorrow (if all goes according to plan..) When I drained the radiator, I noticed that it was very dirty, and obviously very contaminated by combustion gases. It had been clean at the start of the run - so another pointer towards a failed head gasket.
I have taken the turbo off as I'm planning on implementing a different one at the same time a s fixing this current "issue" - easier to do that with the radiator out, that I need to flush anyway!
Any suggestions on what sort of head gasket to go with - or should I just use a 'standard' Alfa one?
cheers, Jimn~
Spesso are supposed to be very good :D
...and as you drive the car more or less as a race car, I'd be wanting an uprated gasket.
wrinx
Cometic are the best ones to have, as Wrinks says, Spesso are also good.
cuore_sportivo_155
19-01-09, 16:51
get an extra thick one, to reduce compression a bit, and see if there's a need or chance to unschroud the valves on the intake.... this will increase flow and reduce the CR a bit more, allowing for more boost without detonation
BTW, what about your knock sensor?
Hi jim! Im very glad to se you changed you driveing style a bit.
1.3 bar was probably caused by unburned fuel igniteing in the exhaust due to failed spark plug.
Greets Klemen
Also, I would change head bolts to a larger diameter ones if you are going for uprated headgasket. The head lifts under high boost since the bolts can not hold it in place.
Spesso headgasket with separate rings (group A) can handle loads of torque, and also NOS if you are up for drag racing :D
And you need less skills (and not so perfect head surface) to install spesso than cometic :)
jimnielsen
20-01-09, 09:02
I almost had that head off today - until I discovered that the bolts are of the Ribe/polydrive sort. They are very uncommon here. I have Torx type drives but they don't quite fit. Hopefully I can get something tomorrow.
I am going to put 12mm bolts in it before I reassemble the engine. Has anybody tried using 12mm studs instead of bolts - that would make it easier and cheaper. ARP has a good range.
I am planning on using a copper head gasket with ORings in the cylinder liners.
jimn.
Hi jim! Im very glad to se you changed you driveing style a bit.
1.3 bar was probably caused by unburned fuel igniteing in the exhaust due to failed spark plug.
Greets Klemen
i agree with Klemen
i have use 12mm bolts
and a spesso headgasket with separate rings (group A)
from here
http://www.walkers-garage.co.uk/shop/
jimnielsen
20-01-09, 10:36
did you pull out the block to have the M12 holes drilled or was it done with the block still in the car?
:0 cheers - jimn~
arjunior45
21-01-09, 16:33
I almost had that head off today - until I discovered that the bolts are of the Ribe/polydrive sort. They are very uncommon here. I have Torx type drives but they don't quite fit. Hopefully I can get something tomorrow.
I am going to put 12mm bolts in it before I reassemble the engine. Has anybody tried using 12mm studs instead of bolts - that would make it easier and cheaper. ARP has a good range.
I am planning on using a copper head gasket with ORings in the cylinder liners.
jimn.
I'm going to use 12mm studs {instead of the bolds} as, in my opinion, does not deform {length increase} that much as the bolds. Go for them.
Nick
PS.
Could you please measure the exact length of the oem bolds?
jimnielsen
21-01-09, 19:52
yes, i'll measure the original ones for you as soon as I get out out!
jimn~
did you pull out the block to have the M12 holes drilled or was it done with the block still in the car?
:0 cheers - jimn~
yes the block was out of the car?
if i was you
im going to pull out the engine and make it from the begin
forget pistons bored,drilled and all this
Hello everyone on Berlina Sportivo. Whilst this isn't quite my first post I'm obviously new and an introduction is in order. My name is Nik Osborne and I reside in the tax sucking contry that is the UK, up north in Carlisle. I have a selection of parts for your interest
Both head and main studs. The head studs are 12mm.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/headstuds002.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/headstuds004.jpg
These are made by a company that makes the fasteners for almost all the F1 teams, from the same material as they use until very recently. The level of quality can't be beaten and the design is not at all random. They feature rolled threads and a proper seating detail. The main studs have a pip on them locate the main caps perfectly and a girdle that fits over them to make sure all is as perfect as can be.
The studs are available for purchase from me. They come with ARP nuts and washers. The head studs cost ?250. Not cheap I know but quality never is and I work on a very small margin, there's no ripping folk off. From a personal point of view I'm an avarage Joe and know what it is to watch the pennies, I will spend the money in the right areas though.
Nik
jimnielsen
23-01-09, 00:50
Well, after a long battle to get an M12 Ribe bit to remove the head bolts, mine finally arrived - so after a few minutes the nature of the problem has become more apparent...
jimnielsen
23-01-09, 00:52
Just a couple more photos...
Now there's classic detonation if ever I saw it. :frown:
Owww, not good :(
Certainly matches the description here:
http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articles/Engine/Detonation/Page_2.php
Hope the fix is not to expensive...or is it time for forged pistons??? :lol:
wrinx
arjunior45
23-01-09, 08:53
quite a lot of mess!!! sorry to see that Jim.
What do you think is the reason for all that?
Hope to see this car buck on the tracks soon.
Regards
Nick
PS.
Thats the kind of stud {mentioned by 1NRO} I meant
Not what you want to see in an engine, nasty. My sympathy
jimnielsen
23-01-09, 10:41
yes, its a bit of a mess. As to the specific cause, i'm not exactly sure, but there are a number of possibilities....
You can see on the attached pic from the data logger - the problem occurs 13 seconds along the graph (time is the x axis..) Boost is normally controlled to approx 1.05 bar to 7000 rpm but as the car (in 3rd gear) passes 6700 rpm boost starts to rise again - as an 'artifact' of the failure of the engine.
the cause is probably either one, or a combination of these things..
1. generating too much heat into the inlet manifold from using a turbo / intercooler combination that does not work efficiently enough at these revs. causing detonation.
2. failure / overload of an injector. causing detonation.
3. failure of the head gasket, causing mixture problem, causing detonation.
4. general problems with the air fuel ratio - causing detonation.
arjunior45
23-01-09, 12:03
can't say - see much from this graphic.
Don't you monitor the AFR? I think you mast do it, as long as you use the car in the track. A wide band one is the best and there are certain one with data logger too.
Too much heat into the inlet manifold should have caused other problems before {less boost increase is one of them}.
try to clean the injectors and see how they work and if they spray the same amount of gasoline.
Failure of the head gasket? I think you should have a head gasket with broken rings and yours is just melted - as far I can see from the photo attached.
Any way, you have a lot to do with your engine for the moment but I believe you should consider {seriously} to mount a wb AFR meter, an exhaust temperature meter, a 'detonation detector-warning lamp' and maybe an 'inlet temperature sensor-reader' too.
From my experience, AFR meter and exhaust gas temperature meter can help you a lot to avoid problems at a track - as long as you keep an eye on them.
Wish you the best for the engine at the moment.
Nick
yes, its a bit of a mess. As to the specific cause, i'm not exactly sure, but there are a number of possibilities....
You can see on the attached pic from the data logger - the problem occurs 13 seconds along the graph (time is the x axis..) Boost is normally controlled to approx 1.05 bar to 7000 rpm but as the car (in 3rd gear) passes 6700 rpm boost starts to rise again - as an 'artifact' of the failure of the engine.
the cause is probably either one, or a combination of these things..
1. generating too much heat into the inlet manifold from using a turbo / intercooler combination that does not work efficiently enough at these revs. causing detonation.
2. failure / overload of an injector. causing detonation.
3. failure of the head gasket, causing mixture problem, causing detonation.
4. general problems with the air fuel ratio - causing detonation.
No. 2 can be ruled out as it has happened on more than one cylinder, No. 3 can be too as a blown gasket would cause decompression. It's 1 or 4 or a combination of the two. Poor quality or old fuel can also cause or contribute.
The logging stuff is great btw, a great help and very interesting.
Juan AR155Q4
23-01-09, 13:33
Sorry to hear/read this Jim.
Anyway nothing that couldn?t be solved.
When I melted a piston, was #3 too (weakness design maybe), but just on the intake side.
No. 2 can be ruled out as it has happened on more than one cylinder, No. 3 can be too as a blown gasket would cause decompression. It's 1 or 4 or a combination of the two. Poor quality or old fuel can also cause or contribute.
The logging stuff is great btw, a great help and very interesting.It looks just to happened in #3, can?t see any marks in the others cyls.
As Nick said, it would be great to monitor and log AFR and EGT, that would tell you a lot of what happens in the engine.
Now the positive side: time for forged pistons, flowed head and beasty cams!!!:D
Juan AR155Q4
23-01-09, 13:38
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/deltapartsgirdle005.jpg
Nice stuff :tasty:!!!
How are the main caps tightened? Have you got a sided pic?
Maybe we could split this in a new thread so as not to hijack Jim?s.
jimnielsen
23-01-09, 20:32
I have been using a wide band lambda sensor, the Innovate Motorsports LC-1 - and i was logging its data as well - however I wasn't using it last weekend at Sandown because it has failed (yet again..) Its been a pain to work with - I wish I had bought the LM-1 instead.
Question . Where can I purchase a new exhaust valve - needs to be somewhere that does mail order, you can't buy them from Alfa Romeo here.
cheers, jim.
Should be able to get one from Alfa UK I think, c.?20 last time I read a price (Alfajack?).
7650916 - EXHAUST VALVE
Edit: 2005 price is ?50!!! Sure AJ said they were less...I'm happy to help with sending one over if needed.
wrinx
Afraid not, they were ?50 each - sodium filled type :(
jimnielsen
24-01-09, 00:46
50 Pounds - that's about 6 billion Australian Dollars! :)
jimnielsen
24-01-09, 03:09
For the sake of completeness... I did make many full throttle runs with using the wideband lambda sensor.. here is a typical one that show AFR's of approx 12.5:1 at full boost. the AFR graph looks lumpy because I haven't bothered to 'smooth' the data - this is just the raw output of the sensor.
arjunior45
24-01-09, 13:04
well, my notes for the AFR are:
- "12.7 at the spool-up turbo zone. 12.5 at midrange and 12.4 at top end. The usual suggestion on turbo cars is between 11.5 and 12"
- "Optimum power is considered to be at around 12,5AFR for a turbocharged car and 13AFR on a N.A. one. While optimum economy (on cruise) seems to be in the 15-15,5AFR. Leaner than that you'll experience bad throttle response when cruising (typical hesitation when pressing the throttle). Below 11,2AFR you are loosing power so I never target below this point. I target 13AFR in atmospheric pressure up to +0,2bar then go to 12,5bar up to +1,0bar. If I were to boost very high (like +1,7/+1,9bar) I'd bring it to 11AFR".
As for just one exhaust valve I can not help you that much.
Nick
im going to check on monday if i can find one used valve
jimnielsen
26-01-09, 04:27
I think this piston may almost be beyond repair :)
Quick rub over with some emery cloth and it'll be fine....:redface:
wrinx
arjunior45
26-01-09, 07:12
I'm afraid I must agree with you.
Check the rest of the engine before you decide anything.
Nick
How is the engine block looking?... That could be a problem. It's not very expensive to get new piston and conrod here in Europe...
jimnielsen
28-01-09, 03:51
is this the correct part number to use - 71719060 ??
does one use 'standard' alfa romeo bearings?
http://212.187.114.126:7080/navi?VERSION=3&COUNTRY=099&GRP_COD=101&SBMK=R&DRIVE=S&SIN_ENGINE=AR67203&SGS_COD=2&MAKE=R&ENGINE_NO=1597341&YEAR=1994&COMM_MODEL=155&VEHICLE_NO=00124469&SELECTED_COLOR_COMB=undefined&CAT_COD=U6&COLOUR=336_0&MOD_COD=167&MVS=167.958.0.0.0&ENGINE=4&SGRP_COD=5&CHASSIS_NO=01019578&SIN_VERSION=167A2C&MONTH=11&ALL_FIG=0&LANGUAGE=3&PREVIOUS_KEY=SUBGROUP&ALL_LIST_PART=0&SB_CODE=-1&KEY=PARTDRAWDATA&PRINT_MODE=0&EPER_CAT=SP&WINDOW_ID=1&GUI_LANG=3
Rods - these are made here in Australia. I think i will use them.
http://www.pureperformancemotorsport.com/shop/index.php?cPath=82&osCsid=9e909dec9bc5a82530f4013e9f996d07
pistons - I was thinking these...
http://www.jtechmotorsport.co.uk/index_Page1326.htm
thanks, jimn ~
It's the cheapest way of doing it Jim for sure, but is cheapest best? China forgings would have me worried. The Wossners aren't IMO much good, they must have a very low CR with all that milling on the crown and word on the street is they are less than well made. Ready for the big bore clearance they require?
The ones I've shown you are more expensive (about 50% more) but many times better. The very best I could muster for myself. Maybe the import would kill that possibility though.
Steve Webb
28-01-09, 22:53
Slightly off topic here Jim, but is there any reason why you are using such high rpm? Have you found it gives you better times? Might be the way my engine is set up, but I found that using lower rpm and the midrange torque gives just as good lap times/speeds.
Steve
jimnielsen
28-01-09, 23:47
No, I haven't found that Steve, however I am using the standard cams. At Phillip island and Sandown where the straights are long, I tend to use 4th as long as possible to avoid 5th! But as you can see from the attached data power begins to fall off sharply after 6200 rpm. I have found that faster lap times do result from pushing the car out to 7000 rpm in both 2 & 3 gears, but now I have the car lapping faster, I haven't actually been back and tested it of late...
RMB-Racing
30-01-09, 00:08
It's the cheapest way of doing it Jim for sure, but is cheapest best? China forgings would have me worried. The Wossners aren't IMO much good, they must have a very low CR with all that milling on the crown and word on the street is they are less than well made. Ready for the big bore clearance they require?
The ones I've shown you are more expensive (about 50% more) but many times better. The very best I could muster for myself. Maybe the import would kill that possibility though.
Well - I?ll say that you have a slightly small agenda by recommend your product - because it?s your product, and you sell it for a living.
I haven't heart bad about W?ssner pistons - at all, and to the pries they come - I cant see why they shouldn't do the job.
I appreciate your professional comments - but please - let it be objective. Otherwise our decisions of what to buy, could be wrong and to expensive.
If you are being objective - I?ll hope I haven't offended you - but I needed it to be said.
Indeed you are right, it is maybe wrong of me to shoot the Wossners down. They are after all a piston that will fit. My own products are indeed just that too. What I'm trying to point out is that the Wossner piston are someway short of ideal, they have a design of crown that must be low compression, far lower than origional. They have massive valve cuts and a deep dish. This in my opinion is the wrong way of building a turbo engine. Straight away you are creating a lag ridden car. Yes, wind the boost up you might say but with that comes more problems (heat and induction problems) you'd from the very start be chasing problems. The valve cuts do a job that they are required to do but thats all they do, the ones I have are also valve cut but various troughs and sculptured details do a very delibrate job of manipulating the combustion charge (also the exhast stroke) in a manner that promotes a fast and even burn with a mechanical assistance to producing power and exhaust evacuation.
The very sharp machined edges of the crown will not help in the fight to keep DET at bay, more likely that it will give it a helping hand.
A good visual way of seeing this is to use a blow lamp to heat a square edged metal bar at the same time as heating a round bar. Same with riven kindling and something like a round brush shank.
I'm trying to not mention mine (difficult without using them to compare to the Wossners) but on this point they are on a winner, the man who has them made for me (he designed them) gets them from wiseco but before he sends them to me he hand finishes the crown in a manner used in cylinder head porting. No sharp edges at all.
The Wossner pistons come with a normal set of rings, fine, but to me I'd prefer to fit something that has modern high spec rings that reduce the rotational friction. Why leave power on the table?
The market up to date for these engines has only had rods to suit a standard piston compression height (that and the market is littered with China forgings that would cause me sleepless nights, ever wondered why there is no manufacturers name mentioned), there is so much more to it than that IMO. A longer rod has many benefits (albeit small improvements) which can be ignored but thats not my style, I want every small improvment that I can get. When in Rome. I won't go on about this point as it will turn into a massive reply, another time maybe.
The point I supose is I'm hell bent on dragging this engine into the modern era and have spent a massive amount of time (and money) researching whos door to knock on and what I want them to do for me when they answer. The sum total of lots of small improvments can only be a good step forward IMO. This is one of the reasons why I don't like to discuss price openly, not because this stuff is massivly expensive (quite the opposite) but rather I'd like to have people understand why. I'm no expert I admit just an obsessive enthusiast that wanted this for myself and I've had to put the effort in to achieve it. Quality is my obsession, I demand it. I have a highly sensitive bullshxt sensor and use it, I don't believe the first thing I hear but more likely log it as a small piece in a bigger jigsaw that someone mixed with another jigsaw.
Nik
I haven't seen the Wiseco pistons 1NRO sells (please show us a picture or two!), so I can't say anaything about them besides that it sounds serious when you describe them. An alternative, which I have mentione in previous threads, is Italian CPS pistons http://www.pistonispeciali.it/index%20pistu1.htm. The cost €150 each and you can have the compression ratio you want. The pistons looks good in general but I don't remember the piston ring design and I know the valve pockets are quite sharp edged.
/A
jimnielsen
04-02-09, 03:42
What are the "BBB" 's that are on the side of the block here supposed to signify?
(yes, I HAVE taken the engine out....I have decided to have it bored to an exact size for the new pistons.)
** AND **
how do you remove the front pully/gear that drives the timing belt from the crankshaft - is this thing sort of like a 'slide hammer' that they are using in the manual to get it off?? - see pic..
jimn~
If you can wait (or no-one else tells you a better way) I'll get a pic of how you get the pulley off, it's very easy. Yes, that is a slide hammer.
jimnielsen
04-02-09, 07:04
I can wait :) - its nighttime here anyway!
jim~
Screw the crank pulley bolt back in (not quite all the way in) get a big washer that will sit on the top of bolt but not pass through the hole in the centre of the trigger wheel. Sandwich washer between bolt and trigger wheel and use two of the allen bolts that hold the rest of the pulleys on to back the pulley off.
I've got 5mins before heading off into the snow so I'll give you something to chew over.
Get some 5mm plate about 200 x 50. Wind the centre bolt (LH thread remember) into the crank, put the plate on top of this bolt head, drill two holes in line with 2 of the 4 holes which are in the pulley, wind in two of the hex head bolts which came out and Viola! Your pulley should slide off.
jim when you are going to sent the block for bore dont forget to plane the top of block
in the place of the head gasket
the surface must be like new one with no corosion holes from the water
and the fire ring can have full contact with the surfase
jimnielsen
04-02-09, 08:20
Thanks for the advices on the pulley wheel - yes, I will have the block machined flat when I have it bored! Its going to be 44 degrees here tomorrow - I want snow too!
jim.
jimnielsen
05-02-09, 05:15
I was taking the crankshaft out, and checking the bearings as I went, and they all looked great until #2 -as you can see it has a lot of damage on its surface, its lucky that it didn't grab and seize the engine! The journal looks ok.... Any ideas as to cause? the engine has only 77K on it.
jimn~
When I rebuilt the engine on pavs car that is what No1 looked like. No real idea why though.
It's called 'Crap engine design'. This is why we have redesigned the products we sell and our engines are built for reliability aswell as horsepower.
At the moment I dismantle about one engine per week, every one has worn out bearings in it and most have scrap cranks. Below is this weeks victim, every single journal perfect apart from the one which is fed from the balancer shaft bearing, this is why we remove it and cap it off on a re-build. I took the pic whilst showing you how to remove the drive pulley, also shown.
arjunior45
05-02-09, 08:01
I was taking the crankshaft out, and checking the bearings as I went, and they all looked great until #2 -as you can see it has a lot of damage on its surface, its lucky that it didn't grab and seize the engine! The journal looks ok.... Any ideas as to cause? the engine has only 77K on it.
jimn~
Jim, check the conrod from this piston too. If you find some kind of 'torsion' do not be surprised.
Do not know what caused this, but that was the 'look' of the bearings when my wife destroy the Bertone's engine.
Nick
jimnielsen
05-02-09, 08:08
Thanks, Martin. I did get the pulley off ok - I remembered that I have a hydraulic puller and used it the same way as 'a piece of flat' - using the center bolt and a couple of bolts from the pulley. I am going to use your 'kit' for the balance shaft removal ! I am lucky that my crankshaft is not 'scrap' as they are not easy to obtain here. This is the journal from 3@ main that the bearing is from...
jimn~
jimnielsen
06-02-09, 03:52
I took the injectors in to be tested today - I was worried that #3 injector may have contributed to the problem with detonation in that cylinder, but - no - they are all working perfectly... I guess that's good!
:)
jim..
Why? You won't be needing them again!
Jim, is it a scratch in the journal bearing in the picture, or is it melt bearing material? besides that, the crank looks ok.
Juan AR155Q4
06-02-09, 11:53
The first injector (from left to right) is flowing less than second one, and is a big difference.
Or when the liquid settle down was the volume the same?
jimnielsen
28-02-09, 05:39
I have been making some mods to the car to enable the implementation of an FMIC. Here it is..
shame the car still has no engine at this stage, but I am working on it!
are the small "air-vents' in the 2nd pic that were in the front bumper standard fitment?
cheers, jimn~
No, the standard "fitment" is just rectangular/octagonal holes in the bumper :lol: There are some pictures on a thread I started a while ago.
I think that looks REALLY nice! Btw...what did you do with the little blanking plate in the middle?
wrinx
Here it is:
http://forum.berlinasportivo.org/showthread.php?t=618&highlight=bumper+cut+outs
Not my thread after all, Steve started it :D The originals are there and my effort follows.
wrinx
jimnielsen
28-02-09, 09:51
the small blanking plate is "in the bin" - do you need one? I am sure that I could retrieve it for you!
jimn~
That would be great if you could :cool:
As you can see from the pics of my cutouts...I am without, and a red one is just perfect :D
wrinx
jimnielsen
07-03-09, 00:48
I decided that I wanted a larger capacity radiator in the Q4... This is it...The Radiator is a almost the same size - width wise, but its 90MM taller. The core of this radiator is 60mm compared to 24mm on the original one. Its 800 grams heavier than the Q4 rad. I am going to use a different cooling fan that is only 65MM thick (as opposed to the Q4's 150mm! thick fan). I will probably lower the bottom mounting bracket such that this thing still fits under the black metal panel that is over the original radiator. The main inlet/outlet ports can be put on any of the four corners of the radiator, as the connectors are threaded.
cheers, jim.
RMB-Racing
07-03-09, 09:01
Nice! :cool:
jimnielsen
08-03-09, 03:06
It fits! In fact it fits really well. Height is a bit of a problem, but it still fits in the available space with a little local trimming, and uses the original bottom bracket.
Jim, I really like the finnish of both the modification of the car's front and the radiator + IC. Especially the the air ventilations in the bumper are very tasful - but, is there anything left of the front bumper beam? It would have made me very nervous to drive a car on max attack with a structural part of the front removed...
jimnielsen
08-03-09, 08:57
I have modified the 'beam' behind the front bumper a little to make it skinner to allow room for where I need the FMIC to be. I have also made it stronger - however - these cars are very weak at the front, the 'beam' is just one section of 1mm spot welded-pressed sheet metal. There is no diagonal bracing - in fact no bracing at all! It must have very poor torsional rigidity, you would not make a race-car like this by choice! :). On the other hand, I really need to be able to run this car at 7000 RPM and keep the coolant at < 90 degrees C.
jim. ~
It fits! In fact it fits really well. Height is a bit of a problem, but it still fits in the available space with a little local trimming, and uses the original bottom bracket.
Will you please stop posting pictures of your ramp :cry::redface::cool:
Looking very purposeful :smoke:
wrinx
jimnielsen
08-03-09, 10:14
I'd swap it for a Q4 that actually goes....
Counts me out then :(
wrinx
jimnielsen
12-03-09, 03:42
coils... the coils go at the back of the inlet manifold as marked in pic 1 - I'd like to put them somewhere more accessible...has anybody moved the coils 'elsewhere'?
Map Sensor Manifold connection... I'd like to move the map sensor connection on the manifold from where is normally is (pic2) to the connection in pic3, so that it is more accessible (I'm not using that connection for anything else..) any problems with this??
Radiator.. even after moving to a 60mm thick radiator core, the new rad/fan combo is still 50mm shorter than standard...
jimn~
For methe only way of moving the coils with the original cable is to use an integrale manifold :)
http://www.moj-album.com/slike/10558364/b4BdNmOcDj6F_MoW.v.jpg
jimnielsen
12-03-09, 07:50
yes, that would be great, but I have not been able to find one for sale :(
cheers, jim.
The rad and fan setup looks great. Let us know how well it works...
arjunior45
12-03-09, 09:18
coils... the coils go at the back of the inlet manifold as marked in pic 1 - I'd like to put them somewhere more accessible...has anybody moved the coils 'elsewhere'?
jimn~
that's one of the reasons I'd like to go to 'coils on spark' solution. Any way, if you are interested for a combination of '4 ignition modules - 4 coils on spark' drop me an e-mail.
All you need is:
another 2 {two} oem ignition modules
and
4 {four} 'coils on spark' . The one from 5 cylinder FIAT engines will do the job.
Nick
http://forum.berlinasportivo.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=147&d=1210006695
I moved them here, and used the oem ignition cables. Just bend the holder metall part, and screw it on. The holes are already there.
coils... the coils go at the back of the inlet manifold as marked in pic 1 - I'd like to put them somewhere more accessible...has anybody moved the coils 'elsewhere'?
Map Sensor Manifold connection... I'd like to move the map sensor connection on the manifold from where is normally is (pic2) to the connection in pic3, so that it is more accessible (I'm not using that connection for anything else..) any problems with this??
Radiator.. even after moving to a 60mm thick radiator core, the new rad/fan combo is still 50mm shorter than standard...
jimn~
Map Sensor Manifold connection... I'd like to move the map sensor connection on the manifold from where is normally is (pic2) to the connection in pic3, so that it is more accessible (I'm not using that connection for anything else..) any problems with this??
That's the way it was done in my engine after overhaul and everything works fine... I can not think of why Alfa installed that connection in so hardly accessible place :-/
That's the way it was done in my engine after overhaul and everything works fine... I can not think of why Alfa installed that connection in so hardly accessible place :-/
Italians cars and electronics :doh::doh:
I decided that I wanted a larger capacity radiator in the Q4... This is it...The Radiator is a almost the same size - width wise, but its 90MM taller. The core of this radiator is 60mm compared to 24mm on the original one. Its 800 grams heavier than the Q4 rad. I am going to use a different cooling fan that is only 65MM thick (as opposed to the Q4's 150mm! thick fan). I will probably lower the bottom mounting bracket such that this thing still fits under the black metal panel that is over the original radiator. The main inlet/outlet ports can be put on any of the four corners of the radiator, as the connectors are threaded.
cheers, jim.
Hi!
Where can I buy such a radiator?
What does it cost?
Thanks!
jimnielsen
15-03-09, 19:01
I purchased the radiator here...
http://myworld.ebay.com.au/originalpartsgroup/
it cost $349.00 (Australian dollars that is...)
jim.
I purchased the radiator here...
http://myworld.ebay.com.au/originalpartsgroup/
it cost $349.00 (Australian dollars that is...)
jim.
Holy Shit... :D:D:D
Thanks!
jimnielsen
20-03-09, 05:01
I have got a couple of new bits and pieces for my engine rebuild..First is a nozzle for use as an intercooler spray. It is the one used by the 'autospeed' system.. like this...
http://store.autospeed.com/Kits%20and%20Projects/Intercooler%20Water%20Spray/
I am using it with a SureFlo pump like this...
http://www.shurflo.com/pages/new_industrial/Industrial/agriculture/doc_sum/8000-543-136.html
I have done some testing with the pump and nozzle. It uses 1 Litre every 3 minutes - so I will only need a water reservoir of 3-4 litres. It produces an amazingly fine mist spray.
also I have got the crank assembly hack after having it balanced and linished.
Last is a 'V-Band Clamp' I had not really seen these things before, but i looks like it will make the turbo exhaust system much easier to deal with...
jimn~
jimnielsen
22-03-09, 00:04
In the manual, I can see that there are three thickness of main bearings - a, b and c. presumably so that you can machine the main journals down and use a thicker bearing. BUT... why does the radial clearance specified vary for each thickness of bearing - wouldn't this be setup the same regardless of the thickness of the bearing??
Especially when, looking at the figures, they could all be set at 0.037 and be within tolerance.
I'm guessing it's something to do with the way the oil flows (less shoulder on the bearing), but haven't got a clue really!
wrinx
Juan ALZAGA
23-03-09, 10:35
hI JIM! I'm trying to get same RADIATOR than you from OriginalPartsGroup Ebay Store. Could you be so kind as to let me know if below one is the Radiator you bought from them?
http://cgi.ebay.com.au:80/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180333862100&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:AU:1123
BTW, the radiator FAN you get it from same seller? Any link on that?
Thanks a lot for your tips which will be really helpful to cool down the beast! (quite hot in this early fall in Buenos Aires!) Cheers. Juan
jimnielsen
23-03-09, 10:56
yes that is the exact same radiator - from the same seller. The fan came from...
http://myworld.ebay.com.au/direct_engine_parts/
be aware that the filler cap on top is a bit of a problem in that you either have to cut a hole in the black metal panel that runs over the existing radiator (between the headlights..) for the cap to fit up and through (as I have done..) - or cut off the cap and weld the hole up. frankly it may be easier to cut the top bit off - as it will give you another 25mm in height which is useful..
cheers, jim~
Juan ALZAGA
23-03-09, 11:44
Thanks a lot JIM for your tips and advise! As a result of the hot weather down on here and specially because of the tubular inox manifold things are getting extremely hotter under the hood...not to mention the boost levels that do not cope at all either, so i believe that changing the radiator will be of help to normalize things ....Thanks a lot once again! cheers
Juan
jimnielsen
28-03-09, 00:38
Well, I have now got all the bearings and gaskets that I need to but this engine back together! So at least I have been able to put the main shells in, torque them up and see what sort of clearance we have! I am going to use a mic to do them later - but plastiguage will do for now and it says approx 3 thou.
jimn~
jimnielsen
01-04-09, 06:10
finally got my wide band lambda sensor back from innovate. at least they had the decency to send me a brand new one rather than fixing the old one!
:)
jimn~
jimnielsen
10-04-09, 01:03
This is the electric water pump that I have bought for when I reassemble the engine (soon...) Its a Davies Craig EWP80. It cost $165.00 (AUD). Its rated at 80L/pm. I am going to use it without an 'electronic control unit' that varies the speed of the pump in response to engine temperature. So it will just run flat-out all of the time. Its going to go 'in-line' on the lower radiator hose. Also I am using Wrinx's old thermostat with the 'thermostat bit' removed. The only connections I really need it to have are (1) the hole that goes through to the block (2) the main connection that goes to the radiator and the small connector that goes to the bleed side of the filler reservoir.
cheers, jimn~
arjunior45
10-04-09, 07:43
why don't you use a trimmer for the wire connection? So, you will be able to 'adjust' the pumps speed manually as you please. At least you could use an on-off switch.
Without the thermostat it will take you ages to worm-up the engine before the race, don't you think?
Let us see pictures when you mount this pump in the car. It will be interesting.
Nick
jimnielsen
10-04-09, 12:32
They do take longer to warm up this way (at idle..) but on the track, its not a problem. I have used them with an on-off switch before, the problem is that is SO EASY to forget to turn the switch on. Its just simpler to wire it to the ignition and not have to worry about it. Also, you get used to hearing it come on when you turn the ignition switch to the 'on' position.
jimn~
RMB-Racing
10-04-09, 13:01
They do take longer to warm up this way (at idle..) but on the track, its not a problem. I have used them with an on-off switch before, the problem is that is SO EASY to forget to turn the switch on. Its just simpler to wire it to the ignition and not have to worry about it. Also, you get used to hearing it come on when you turn the ignition switch to the 'on' position.
jimn~
In your opinion, do you think that this is a better solution, than the original waterpump?
And what is the benefit of using a an electrical waterpump?
jimnielsen
10-04-09, 22:28
They (EWP's) are very common here. They provide lower water temp on a circuit racing car. A few more horsepower, less complexity, less belts.
In my giulietta racecar an EWP made a great contribution to reduced temps. Often people fit flow restrictors to control the cooling. In the giulietta, I used a 13mm flow restrictor - that worked very well.
jimnielsen
13-04-09, 02:13
I am going to try to have some better insight into detonation (knocking, pinging.. whatever its called in the various geographies...)
so I have built this thing..
from autospeed.. its a knock listening device. - basically its a hearing aid modified for use for listening to engine knocking. I am going to use it to calibrate the 'generic' knock sensing device from MSD (on the dyno). It has an LED output that you can see in the car.
I have tested both the standard Q4 knock sensor and the MSD one with an oscilloscope, they both look to have similar output (and both appear to be working..)
does anybody know anything about how the standard Q4 knock sensor interfaces with the ECU data tables - would it be possible to control how much the ECU retards advance if it sees knocking?
cheers, jimn~
arjunior45
13-04-09, 10:06
yes, it is possible. I'll send you later an e-mail.
If I remember well , in 101.05 IMMO bin file, the hex address is 004cc up to 0050b.
I think you're going for a state of art set up for your car, congrats.
Do you have any link for this 'knock alert?
Nick
jimnielsen
13-04-09, 10:59
nick.. here is the manual, its pretty simple. Its called an MSD 8964. It uses a GM piezo detector that is sensitive in the 5Khz range. It has a 1/4" BSP thread that I am still not sure how I am going to connect it to the Q4 block.
http://www.jegs.com/InstallationInstructions/100/121/121-8964.pdf
cheers, jim.
arjunior45
13-04-09, 11:50
thanks Jim
Nick
Hi Jim,
The 16v Fiat coupes have the knock sensor fitted to the block rather than the head. I can't find a pic of the location but have a block I can look at tomorrow to see whats what.
Nik
jimnielsen
14-04-09, 00:28
Maybe its this hole here?? This is the hole I am planning on putting the external knock sensor in. It looks to be out of the way of essential things and 'unused' at least on my engine...
cheers - jimn~
arjunior45
14-04-09, 08:25
workshop manual, posted by Steve at tech pages, has the 'Q4 engine' manual and it's easy to see the location of the oem knock sensor in the drawings!!!
Nick
arjunior45
14-04-09, 08:33
@ Jim,
do you have the tech data {output voltage} of the oem knock sensor? It might be helpful for the hex address of the convertion volt to bit.
Nick
Maybe its this hole here?? This is the hole I am planning on putting the external knock sensor in. It looks to be out of the way of essential things and 'unused' at least on my engine...
cheers - jimn~
in that hole is mounted the knock sensor for fiat coupe
our Q4 is in the cylinder head
it is unsed in all the Q4s
jimnielsen
14-04-09, 21:51
Then I will use that hole for my 'after-market' knock-sensor. I will need to have it converted to 1/4 BSP :)
Then I will use that hole for my 'after-market' knock-sensor. I will need to have it converted to 1/4 BSP :)
It is exactly the hole my OEM knock sensor was fitted before I bought my car... It seems that previous owner took care of that :)
jimnielsen
15-04-09, 06:34
Where does this wire go to? I remember cutting it because I could not get access to whatever it joins to when I removed the head from the block - and I remember thinking that I'd remember where it went to, but I cant :(
Juan AR155Q4
15-04-09, 11:52
A/C pump
jimnielsen
15-04-09, 12:07
Yep! That's it ... I remember now.. Thanks!
It is exactly the hole my OEM knock sensor was fitted before I bought my car... It seems that previous owner took care of that :)
That is also the location where the kncok sensor is fitted on the engine from my Q4 and the Q4 I am taking appart...
Greetings,
Marc
That is also the location where the kncok sensor is fitted on the engine from my Q4 and the Q4 I am taking appart...
Greetings,
Marc
Is it a better solution to mount the sensor on the block, not on the head, where it was mounted by the factory?
In the manual, I can see that there are three thickness of main bearings - a, b and c. presumably so that you can machine the main journals down and use a thicker bearing. BUT... why does the radial clearance specified vary for each thickness of bearing - wouldn't this be setup the same regardless of the thickness of the bearing??
Hi Jim
Class sizes are to make up for the difference in original machined sizes. They offer 3 different size standard bearings so you can pick exactly the right one to get the prefered clearance as close as possible.
jimnielsen
26-05-09, 11:19
Hi Steve, welcome to the forum.. I'd agree with you as it seems logical but as wrinx points out in his reply quoted below there is actually a point where these values all cross over..Anyway to keep it simple I am using standard main bearings and standard conrod bearings. I have already checked the mains - they are 003 thou clearance. The pistons and rods actually arrive tomorrow - so I will check the rod bearing clearances then.
I had to pay GST on the rods and pistons today. Not pleasant...
Especially when, looking at the figures, they could all be set at 0.037 and be within tolerance.
I'm guessing it's something to do with the way the oil flows (less shoulder on the bearing), but haven't got a clue really!
wrinx
Class A, B And C are all "standard size" bearings. That chart is difficult to understand, maybe the measurements are in relation to a measurement made from a control size bearing during assembly. From that measurement, pick the bearing class.
From what I understand, in simple terms, Class A will give more clearance than Class B which which will give more clearance than Class C and so on. So for whatever reason if your journal is slightly on the small side, you'll need to use a Class C bearing. If its slightly on the large side, you'll want to use a Class A.
Fiat do the same thing with pistons. Class A, B, C and D are all standards size pistons for a standard size bore. After you have measured the bores closely you pick the best fit piston to give the closest to optimum clearance. This would not be necessary if all the bores were exactly the same size but they will vary as they come off the production line and as they wear out over time.
In the aftermarket world its usually done in reverse. The pistons come off the production line in set sizes. Measure the piston and rebore the block to give exactly the correct clearance.
As far as the bearings go I too have only ever asked for the "standard" size. (Probably class A supplied) put them in the engine, measured the clearance which has been within spec and all is good. For the majority of engines that is probably alwasy going to be the case.
jimnielsen
28-05-09, 07:07
well, the wait is over!!! My shiny new forged rods and pistons turned up in the mail today! Now at last I can get the damn block bored to size and start the process of putting the Q4 back together! Boy those piston rings look tiny!!
arjunior45
28-05-09, 09:10
well, the wait is over!!! My shiny new forged rods and pistons turned up in the mail today! Now at last I can get the damn block bored to size and start the process of putting the Q4 back together! Boy those piston rings look tiny!!
congrats Jim, they look ok!!!
If I may say so, you could - should - ought 'weigh balance' them all {pistons, rods and as a complete set} at 100mgr {milligrams} - 0,1gr - although 5 grams difference is acceptable by FIAT.
I know 0,1 gr is too much and a pain in the a...ss job but in long terms you won't regrade it. You'll need at least two long weekends {days and nights} but this 'job' can make the difference for your car {engine}.
Sorry for giving you this advice although you did not asked it, but ...
Too many 'buts', but ...
jimnielsen
28-05-09, 10:30
all advice gratefully received, Nick!
What parts did you go for in the end?
jimnielsen
28-05-09, 19:36
The rods are from Cunningham Rods, the pistons are a modified Wiseco.
Nice, do Wiseco make pistons for these engines? What did you get modified?
jimnielsen
29-05-09, 06:26
Steve, I think that you can buy 'standard' forged wiseco pistons for the alfa/lancia/fiat 16vt engine. In my setup, the rods have been lengthened, the piston pin moved further up the piston and the top surface modified to provide improved combustion characteristics. Each new piston/rod combination (with rings, pins, clips and bolts) weighs 1030 grams - compared to 1325 grams for the original equipment ones.
some more pictures..I wanted to take a few because thats all I'll have of them for a week or so while the block and pistons are at the place that is going to bore the block. Pistons are 84.5mm
jimnielsen
29-05-09, 06:28
last two..
arjunior45
29-05-09, 08:19
so, you are going for higher compression too?
jimnielsen
29-05-09, 10:33
I'm expecting it to be about 9.3:1 - will measure it all up when I have all the pieces back in hand - maybe a week or so..
cheers !~
arjunior45
29-05-09, 13:16
I'm expecting it to be about 9.3:1 - will measure it all up when I have all the pieces back in hand - maybe a week or so..
cheers !~
don't go too high with the boost pressure. Start with oem boost {0,9 - 1,0 bar} first or lower and then be very careful.
jimnielsen
29-05-09, 21:33
Yes, i'll have to be careful with the boost pressure. I am going to be running the car on E85 - that should give us some more 'headroom' as far as boost is concerned. I'll get it running on the hoist on 98 RON ULP then its right over to E85.
That's great stuff. How long are the rods now? The pistons look like they take 4 rings though, weird. I assume they must take only 3 and there is an extra grove there for some reason.
Well it should pull some big revs now, I hope you have a decent turbo for some good top end!
I have a compression ratio calculator (Guy Croft) on excel format. If you are interested I can send you a copy. Just plug in your numbers and see what it works out to be.
jimnielsen
31-05-09, 08:48
that'd be cool. can you please email it to me?
cheers, jim.
I have a compression ratio calculator (Guy Croft) on excel format. If you are interested I can send you a copy.
I am also interested :smile:
Greetings,
Marc
jimnielsen
31-05-09, 09:23
There are only three rings - the other 'slot' is a (sorta) V shaped groove...
The groove between top and second rings is a "pressure groove" it helps the top ring to behave when gases get past it. The ring end gap is slightly larger on the second ring compared to the first for this reason too.
E85 is as det friendly as it gets with fuel though the higher compression ratio isn't crazy by any means, the Misti's come from the factory with similar CR and they push the CR even higher in high level engines. Jim's been developing a Det fetish so shouldn't have problems.
Seen this gizmo Jim?http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/ECA/ECA.htm
Nik
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