View Full Version : Performance Clutch
Steve Webb
04-12-08, 23:29
Anyone seen/heard/used one of these before?
Q4 Clutch (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PERFORMANCE-PADDLE-CLUTCH-KIT-ALFA-ROMEO-155-TURBO-4WD_W0QQitemZ370093931803QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Car sParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item370093931803&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66:2|65:3|39:1|240:1318)
Yeah, seen them on ebay for quite a while now....they usually sell bog standard parts, think I've bought something for the 156 before, but certainly enquired about some shock recently...answer wasn't great but they were helpful enough.
They were just a generic aftermarket type place but look like they';re branching out a bit
wrinx
Haven't seen this..
I use OMP set (OIS/FI67 cover and OIV/LA86/P disc (with sprigs))
But it took ages for OMP to supply one :) (2-3 months after an order was placed)
Overall impressions are very good. Grip is instant and you can use it on a daily car to a certain extent (clutch cover is not very firm).
jimnielsen
05-12-08, 19:58
where did you actually get these OMP products from, Mindus? I tried to get them via an Ebay vendor who advertised them - but after waiting four months - nothing - so I went with the standard clutch.
jimn~
I have the clutch on the right:
http://berlinasportivo.org/marquespec/Alfa/Q4register/Jan/clutch.jpg
Don't know the brand, but it was rated up to 500Nm and is very good in its job. As i am using it still without problems.
I wish i noted it down when they installed it......:doh:
have a look there
http://www.walkers-garage.co.uk/shop/
the cluth and the pressure plate from 16v integrale can fit in Q4
integrale out diameter of clutch disk is 230 and Q4s is 235mm
but the total pad surface of lancia is bigger becauce the inner diametr of the pad is smaller
take care that the surface of the flywheel is flat and the pad is in full contact
he use to have and twin plate systems
1.i now use Aluminium lightened flywheel ?395.00
2.Up rated Clutch pressure plate ?195.00
3.Standard style disc with uprated Ferodo friction material & stronger take up springs. ( Uprated standard ) This type has a cleaner take up from a standing start where as the paddle plate below being a competition item is more aggressive and does have a sharper take up point giving some judder. This plate ? 55
i can tell if is good or not get only 5000km easy ride
tecno2 from walkers
http://www.tecno2.co.uk/brakes-clutches.htm
a clutch like Q4jan i thing
Personally I would avoid anything with OMP written on it and not just clutches.....
This thread may be of some interest to you:
http://www.fccuk.org/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=702704#Post702704
No one has any feedback of one yet though.
I haven’t seen any discussion on the forum on clutches, will put my thoughts below. Since I remember my idea of a metal ceramic clutch was “it’s an lifetime disc that can handle loads of torque…” and did not find much info easily on that… Think this could be useful for people who have not tried/read about… If anything here is incorrect here from theoretical or practical point, let me know, I’ll delete that.
I used two kits of different manufacturers and characteristics on a Q4 so my experience is based only on that. I also driven an OEM one on a Q4. So will compare aftermarket sets to OEM one.
The first aftermarket kit was made of a custom cover and 4 paddle metalceramic disc (don’t remember the manufacturer) without springs. The custom cover is pretty much the same j1v has posted pictures on and has installed in his car.
http://forum.berlinasportivo.org/showthread.php?t=564
It is a custom made cover with dual pressure plate. Driven for over a year. Done like 5-10k km. Torn out during this period completely. But even on the last of its days it still gripped.
The second one, which is currently installed onto Q4, is a OMP set which Evodelta is not happy about ;) It is a reinforced clutch cover (they claim 30% higher clamping force) and 5 paddle disc with springs. pictures of cover and disc with a nice box at the botom.
The next one I’ll try is a twin plate clutch set (an “on/of” clutch :-) )
When deciding on a clutch I would have in mind:
1) metal ceramic is about grip, forget the comfort
2) clutch cover is the king. The more torque you have, the stronger cover is needed. But the stronger the cover, more pain to your knee if you stick in a traffic jam. So its pretty much a racing option, not for a daily driver.
3) Metalceramic disc with standard cover is waste of money
My loooong report:
Metalceramic clutch with a stronger than OEM cover is very unfriendly to be used in the city where you have lots of “start and stops”.
Since metalceramic has a much higher friction as compared to organic material, it doesn’t slip as easy at the start ups. It means – you cannot start as smoothly as with an organic one. It means judder and vibration until the clutch finally cuts-in. It cuts in fast :) . It hurts transmission at the same time. A way to launch it smoothly is to start with a RPM higher than 2.5k and not let the clutch fully engage. BUT metalceramic surface wears out fast as a result. And you burn the flywheel.
If the seller tells metallceramic is smooth, he is not honest I believe (they all say it is a only bit harsh :) . Metalceramic is only about grip and not comfort and not street driving. With a correct clutch cover off course. Otherwise you waste your money…
Personally – while sitting at the traffic jam that grip with a strong cover (the first with dual pressure plate kit) made me crazy. Because you can not start smoothly and since the twin pressure plate cover was very strong, I often got pain in my knee. You have to keep distance from the car in the front to get moving (it engages instantly and you keep RPM well over 2-3k to engage smoothly…). BUT it can handle loads and loads of torque. Same set used on cars with well over 500Nm here. OMP set is much friendlier on that since it has reasonably strong cover (so much less efforts needed to engage the clutch BUT it can handle less torque), springs help a bit also to the fact that vibration is less. But the difference between a disc with springs and solid one is not as big as sellers are emphasizing in my opinion.
Had a chance to drive a Q4 with OEM clutch, it’s miles softer than OMP one so omp claims seam quite reasonable (they claimed 30-50% in torque could be handled by this set when asked). Made a few dozens of launch starts on a dry tarmac, clutch operates just fine, the gearbox is still in place also :)
Another thing to note is that if you like to lower gears while braking (to put a right gear for a corner), you have to learn heel-and-toe technique. Organic disc slips and you can avoid that, but metalceramic don’t, so if you put from third gear to the second while breaking on and will not push on the accelerator to increase RPM and engage the gear smoothly, beyond extreme juddering you’d probably end up in breaking the gearbox after a while…
The second thing – metal ceramic disc wear out fast on a daily driving in a city. I completely torn out the first set in something like 5-10k km. Most of that was done in a city. It means traffic, looooots of start and stops. Since I’ll take the engine out soon, hope will check the condition of OMP set at the same time.
My last thoughts - for a front wheel drive car a clutch is of much easier choice since you have only 2 tires. So if it is good for a 2WD, it will hardly be good for a 4WD. But vice versa is true ;)
Another thing forgot to mention, if you install uprated cover, you'd most likely have to change old cluch cilynders to new ones. Had to do it after several hundreds of km. They'd have been working for another hundred of years with a standard clutch cover...
Cheers
where did you actually get these OMP products from, Mindus? I tried to get them via an Ebay vendor who advertised them - but after waiting four months - nothing - so I went with the standard clutch.
jimn~
I ordered it through a local OMP representative. They say in their site that have distributor in Australia.
When installing you have to check if it sits correctly on the flywheel (a simple drawing on the position on pressure plates is included in the box) otherwise have to machine the flywheel to make it sit correctly.
M
Thanks for your views and a well written post.
I've never been a fan of any of the OMP stuff, and once took one of their paddle clutches out of a car with only low mileage on it, the clutch was nearly worn out....
So basically you are saying put up with clutch judder or fit a softer clutch and risk slipping, up till now that has been the case. I think that there may be clutches out there that will be easy to use and hold large power, someone just needs to make one for an integrale/Q4!
The Helix clutch is supposed to be easy to use and support moderate power increases (300lbs/ft torque).
RMB-Racing
13-12-08, 09:30
Well, I have used a Helix sinter metal clutch in my Fiat Uno Turbo (rallyversion) which had approx 200 bhp and about 300 nm torque. It never slipped, and it was very very easy to drive with.
So maybe it will be the same for the Q4..?!!
But I have bought this one: http://www.ar-racingshop.de/product_info.php?cPath=18&products_id=51
But haven't installed yet!
A friend who used to do lots of drag racing tried lost of different brands, and found a custom made dual pressure plate cover the only option for big numbers. But I still hope to find something that could be more friendly to be driven and be able to.
So please post your experinece on anything you tried (since will have to change mine by summer)
The clutch i have is very easy to use. A little heavier than standard to use. But not bad.
Only if somebody else drives my car they notice the different feel from other 155's.
And there is this parking garage wich i drive to the 14th floor to get to work so i use the clutch quite a bit.
(Although i don't use the Q4 on a daily basis it gets out enough.)
I really am very happy with it.
And it has no problem with the almost 400Nm i got at the moment.
It also has lasted some 50.000km already.
Steve Webb
14-12-08, 09:33
And there is this parking garage which i drive to the 14th floor to get to work so i use the clutch quite a bit.
Hang on. You park on the 14th floor!!! Must be fun if its busy getting in in the morning.
I usualy start at 20:00, when most working days are finished. So for me "morning" is some strange concept wich i have trouble with to understand its meaning. :tasty:
But yes the company parking is on the 15th,16th and 17th floor.
I tend to see it as my private karting track. Makes it much easier to live with.
The decks are "half-floor" so you have two floors in the space of one. But on the ramp is a blinde bend so i use the clutch on every floor to get up. (In case some moron drives down without looking.)
....parking is on the 15th,16th and 17th floor.
I tend to see it as my private karting track.
Lets hope you don't have an "off" :eek:
wrinx
Lets hope you don't have an "off" :eek:
wrinx
Relax. I don't drive like it is a track, i just think of it like one. :biggrin:
I am not the fastest driver on it, but i do look around the most.
Steve Webb
16-12-08, 11:11
But yes the company parking is on the 15th,16th and 17th floor.
I tend to see it as my private karting track. Makes it much easier to live with.
3am , pedal gokart, start at the top and have some fun!!
3am , pedal gokart, start at the top and have some fun!!
Better wait a little. All employes leave at 03:10. (am) :rolleyes:
But that sounds like fun. Won't ever happen though.
(Don't think my boss would like that.)
Sometimes i see younger kids (About 14,15 years old.) with skateboards/small bikes with the same idea. :cool:
Last week i drove on the highway, felt a snap, and no more power to the wheels.:eek:
I was afraid the transmission failed, but it seems to be the clutch.
car is at the garage at the moment and i asked for a helix organic clutch.
The clutch i had was great, but it went very bad. I had to be towed, and later carried away by truck. Most other clutches probably would slip a bit before they really died. Wich would bring me home.
The clutch was in from 2004 till start of 2009. Probably some 50.000 km.
I take this to also balance the drive shaft and fit the big brake kit wich finaly has been redrilled to 4x98.
The garage had some trouble finding the correct clutch and asked me to sort it out myself.
No helix organic now, i changed my mind.
I orderded trough Walkers.
Upgraded 230mm clutch plate
Alcon 6 pad clutch
release bearing
All should be well up until 300lb/ft. Wich is enough for my 380Nm.
Now just waiting for the parcel.
The garage had some trouble finding the correct clutch and asked me to sort it out myself.
No helix organic now, i changed my mind.
I orderded trough Walkers.
Upgraded 230mm clutch plate
Alcon 6 pad clutch
release bearing
All should be well up until 300lb/ft. Wich is enough for my 380Nm.
Now just waiting for the parcel.
You must be careful this one
The clutch plate and the disk that walkers have there is from lancia
Our outer diameter of the disk is 235mm lancia 230mm
The inner diameter is smaller from ours(155s)
May be in your flywheel there is a cavity from the friction with the 235mm disk
In the inner diameter it is possible for the disk plate to not have a full contact with the flywheel
ihave mine from walkers too
aluminium flywheel
230 mm upgraded plate
organic disk
So i need another flywheel?
Or only if the old one shows markings from the "bigger" alfa part?
I do believe clutch that was on (Shown above) was an integrale part also.
But i will have a good look at the flywheel before all is fitted.
Walkers send a nice package.
Upgraded pressure group.
And a nice 6 paddle alcon clutch.
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/3426/foto0005qu8.jpg
Car today finaly went on the "big job" carlift in the garage.
Jobs on hand:
- Fitting the new clutch
- Fitting Brembo bigbrakekit (305*28 4pot)
- Make heatshield between engine head and exhaust manifold
- Balancing of drive shaft and while at it replace the rubbers around it.
- Anything found while messing about. :eek:
arjunior45
10-02-09, 07:44
- Anything found while messing about. :eek:
thats the worst part of a 'big job' - at least for me. I hate this part as it's the 'part' where I can see the '1/2 Kgr ignition advance' mechanic's work!
Wish you the best Jan
Nick
can you post a foto for the Upgraded pressure group?
can you post a foto for the Upgraded pressure group?
Actualy i did not get a picture of it.
If you click here:
http://www.walkers-garage.co.uk/shop/index.html?lang=en-uk&target=front.html
And choose "clutches" the pictere there looks like the one i got.
But i didn't think it looked exciting enough to justify a picture.
But if you really want it i could drive to the garage where the Q4 is, and make one.
Walkers posts this:
Upgraded:
http://www.walkers-garage.co.uk/shop/contents/media/l_SF230A%20clutchcover.JPG
Standard:
http://www.walkers-garage.co.uk/shop/contents/media/l_Clutch%20Kit.jpg
thats the worst part of a 'big job' - at least for me. I hate this part as it's the 'part' where I can see the '1/2 Kgr ignition advance' mechanic's work!
Wish you the best Jan
Nick
I already found one thing wierd. My intercooler shroud is mounted 180degrees rotated.... (Probably for some time already....
It is amazing it got any air fed into it.
At least i will do a new dyno run when everything is ready, suspect it to work a bit better when it gets some air.:eek:
Found this myself why looking around under the car.
Also the D2 suspension at the back looks amazingly corroded already, probably because of the salt and some snow we had here.
no dont go to the garage i just want to see if we have the same plate
and as i see is the same
have a happy end with all this
thank you
Okay, the old clutch has its center spinning freely. The inside parts of the clutch have been broken off. (4 pins wich hook in when it is engaged. Totaly broken off.)
Tomorow will take the new-clutch and flywheel away to a company to flaten and balance the lot.
First big surprise:
Two seals in the engine are all dried out and leaking a bit. (My engine had been oily on the bottom for some time.)
(The two on the bottom, 1 at the "carter" the other is above that running diagonaly across the engine.)
So will need to have those replaced also together with the plugs at the balanceshafts.
Steve as this is getting to Off-topic please let me know. Could be made in a separate thread.:tapedshut:
The old clutch:
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9301/foto0013.jpg
Here are the parts wich came from the center of the clucth and their failing was the reason the clutch wouldn't operate anymore:
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9808/foto0015.jpg[/quote]
Too much power for the clutch?
wrinx
Too much power for the clutch?
wrinx
Probably. It should be rated at 400Nm i was told, but as i "only" have 380Nm i would guess it was a bit less than that.
Still it lasted more than 50.000 km.
The walkers one should be good for 470Nm so i hope it stays in one piece longer.
And when the intercooler shroud is placed correct i am very curious how much torque is available.:cool:
Anything found now will be adressed. Radiator (wich is close to starting to leak.), the drive shaft to the back balanced, new rubbers placed on the drive shaft.
New brushes for the actuator.
It really takes to long to have me driving again. :frown:
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