View Full Version : New rear anti roll bar
jimnielsen
24-11-08, 05:54
I have had a new rear anti roll bar made for the Q4 - its a 24mm one as compared to the 19.25mm one that is original. It cost $270.00 (AUD). Also here are some pictures of the new springs that I have gone with for the front (D2) Struts - with the 'original' ones for comparison. They are 65mm dia / 180mm free / 650lbs/inch.
cheers, jim.
Links don't work :(
That ARB seems very cheap...
wrinx
That should have some effect on the handling! Go careful in the wet, you'll be surprised how quick the back end comes around.
jimnielsen
24-11-08, 10:35
here is another go at posting the pics.... hmmm. no - still not working.. And yes, I do know how to do it :)
Try here temporarily if you like:
http://www.cloverleaf4.co.uk/upload.php
peter holst
24-11-08, 19:27
is it possible to buy on of those ARB?
pictures please..
jimnielsen
24-11-08, 20:14
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8634721@N05/
yes, $270.00 AUD is pretty cheap - it was made here - - http://www.pedders.com.au/products/56/138
at Pedders in Sydney. Postage out of Australia may be steep!
jim.
Nice little video on their website...and the ARB looks great :cool:
wrinx
jimnielsen
25-11-08, 06:06
some install pics attached....
the attached pics don't work either, for some reason I can't understand... so here they are on flikr!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8634721@N05/sets/72157609976576479/
peter holst
25-11-08, 14:57
would it be possible for you to find out how much it will cost to send it to denmark?
jimnielsen
25-11-08, 20:01
Peter - this is what the Australia Post "international parcel calculator" says - all prices are AUD.
Select Service Price
ECI Merchandise $227.50
ECI Documents $219.75
Express Post International $217.45
Air mail $212.45
Sea mail $96.35
jim.
peter holst
25-11-08, 20:49
thanks very much Jim!
now I just has to see what that is in euro
http://www.xe.com/ucc/ ;)
?40/€48 by sea mail...that's very reasonable! Is it similar for the UK?
Let us know how the car handles... :D
wrinx
jimnielsen
25-11-08, 22:17
postage is the same for most of Europe - as far as I can tell. I am running the car again on the 14th Dec at Phillip Island - so it will be an ideal time to see how the rear bar works.
It is possible to have the bar made in a smaller diameter - ie - 22mm may be more suited to 'non-track' use. The 24mm bar is likely to be problematic in the wet - but I will soon see.
jimn~
Not problematic ! Yust more fun! :D It will get rid of underster you will have to flick it in befor the corner and use the drive out of the corner! Classic Group A 4x4 driving style!
Not problematic ! Yust more fun! :D It will get rid of underster you will have to flick it in befor the corner and use the drive out of the corner! Classic Group A 4x4 driving style!
See how much fun it is when your car is wrapped around a lamp post. :rolleyes:
peter holst
26-11-08, 17:46
I want one if it goes well in testing - looking forward hearing from that..
See how much fun it is when your car is wrapped around a lamp post. :rolleyes:
Personal experience?
Personal experience?
Of lamp posts no, but of oversized rear ARBs, how unpredictable a car can be and on track incidents yes. :rolleyes:
For every successful mod you do to a cars suspension you make it grip better so you can go quicker around corners, this means that the limits of the handling are met at far higher speeds and when you cross that fine line you will know all about it as you will be going so quick and the car will let go so sharp you probably won't catch it.
Jim is doing the right thing by taking his car to the track and trying to get it to handle better, this is the place where understeer has no place and where you can experiment or get it wrong hopefully without it being a major accident. Usually you are driving here with 100% concentration all the time and can be ready for something to happen, on the road you aren't.
The increase in thickness from the OE bar to the new one he has is absolutely massive i'm talking a few 100% here, not just a bit.
To make a comparison with my Delta, I went from 15 to 19mm (which is a heck of a lot as 17mm is seen as a good uprade) and it can be a real handful in the damp. What happens is the front tyres warm up quite quick, but the rears don't, so the back end will come around at high speed and very very quickly too - I'm talking power slides at 100kph+.
I change mine from standard to uprated dependant on weather, not something you can do on a road car.
An uprated rear ARB on otherwise non modified suspension would be undriveable.
I don't want to P*ss on anyones bonfire, I'm just pointing out that Jims has to do his tests and report back and that a badly set up car can easily kill - especially on the road And we don't want to see any pics of banana shaped Q4s eh? ;)
jimnielsen
27-11-08, 00:17
Here is a link to a web page that compares the relative stiffness of anti roll bars. I can't attest to the maths underlying the input boxes - but it is interesting none the less.
....edit .... here is is on flickr, as pic upload seems to be broken??
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8634721@N05/3061726077/
The data in the boxes compares the std 19.25mm bar and the 24mm that I have had made.
jim.
So you've nearly doubled the rear stiffness....yeah, that'll make a difference :lol:
wrinx
The question was not provocative but to explain what you mean! And yes i allready know all that what oyu have written but! An integrale is an unpredictable beast as it is from the get go . Q4 is more forgiving that is what i feel from personal expirience. He has gone a bit hard to the matter but the next step i think is to put in a rollcage. Because the cars suspenison and shell wont last long on racing tires stiff suspenison ARB. As you probably know if you would have the same kind of suspenison on a stock integrale chasies it would start to crack very soon! I do not know if oyu have driven a q4 but it has to be driven in different style as an integrale to be as fast!
The question was not provocative but to explain what you mean! And yes i allready know all that what oyu have written but! An integrale is an unpredictable beast as it is from the get go . Q4 is more forgiving that is what i feel from personal expirience. He has gone a bit hard to the matter but the next step i think is to put in a rollcage. Because the cars suspenison and shell wont last long on racing tires stiff suspenison ARB. As you probably know if you would have the same kind of suspenison on a stock integrale chasies it would start to crack very soon! I do not know if oyu have driven a q4 but it has to be driven in different style as an integrale to be as fast!
I know you weren't being provocative and well, I did explain what I meant!
I agree with what you say too, not sure about "a Q4 has to be driven in different style as an integrale to be as fast!" though?
Do you think they are that far apart and why? Suspension is different of course, but transmission is basically the same. (as is the understeer on a standard car)
hard to explain integrale does strange things when you push it to the limit im talking about twisty narow roads slippy asfalth ( we have no race track to test ) abrupt braking out of the ass ! and such i try to kill you infidel moves! . As the q4 is more forgiving you know when that ass is going to go or when the nose will let go . Q4 shows what is it goign to do as integrale just does it ! That is why i do not like the integrales as much as i did befor i have driven it ( was driving an integrale 16v tipo cams else everything stock )
Yeah I understand what you mean. I guess this makes me some kind of hero eh? Hehee :rolleyes:
RMB-Racing
27-11-08, 18:45
Well - I think it is great that we have this discussion about handling, when we are changing the suspension on the Q4.
I?m really looking forward to hear about Jim's experience with the new ARB.
Have any of you (Stuntz, Evodelta) experience with, how to remove understeering form the Q4..?
I have the New suspension from D2, and I will almost upgrade to stiffer and thicker ARB both on the front end and back end.
What to do..?
PS. I wouldn't mind heavy oversteering..! :tasty:
Well - I think it is great that we have this discussion about handling, when we are changing the suspension on the Q4.
I?m really looking forward to hear about Jim's experience with the new ARB.
Have any of you (Stuntz, Evodelta) experience with, how to remove understeering form the Q4..?
I have the New suspension from D2, and I will almost upgrade to stiffer and thicker ARB both on the front end and back end.
What to do..?
PS. I wouldn't mind heavy oversteering..! :tasty:
Well you have to make the front grip better. Adding some more negative camber is the first thing you would do.
a torsen front diff would possibly do some great job too, but bacci romano wants a fortune for them :)
jimnielsen
28-11-08, 01:09
I have been using -3.5 degrees negative camber ( on the front ) and have just changed it to -4.0. Any opinions on the ideal negative camber for a Q4 track car ( I am using these .. http://www.federaltyres.com.au/ss595rs .. tyres)
J1v - do you have a link to the place where you can get a front 'torsen' diff?
thanks, jimn~
why doesn't pic upload work properly anymore?? at least for me :(
No-one can tell you settings for your car as it is individual in its specification, you have to do your own tests and adjust it accordingly, just guessing is no good. The equipment needed isn't expensive.
J1v - do you have a link to the place where you can get a front 'torsen' diff?
http://www.bacciromano.com/index.php?p=prodotti&l=eng&cat1=24&cat2=40&mar=5
J1v - do you have a link to the place where you can get a front 'torsen' diff?
http://www.bacciromano.com/index.php?p=prodotti&l=eng&cat1=24&cat2=40&mar=5
BTW, i've been mistaken, it's not a torsen
why doesn't pic upload work properly anymore?? at least for me :(
Not sure at the moment Jim, have emailed Steve to ask him if he can query it with the host. For now, another host would be best. My own here is quite easy and quick:
http://www.cloverleaf4.co.uk/upload.php
jimnielsen
02-12-08, 06:13
I am going to give this a try this time...
ignore the caster figures....
Based on what? Without testing and getting some results on paper you might aswell open your wallet over the nearest storm drain.....
jimnielsen
02-12-08, 09:09
Based on the fact that I did 65 laps at Winton last month with -3.0 degrees neg camber on the front - and its just not enough. Tire wear is high on the outside working front tire and temp is 20 degrees hotter on the front outside - than the middle and inner. The wheel alignment cost $55 (AUD) that's about 20p in British pounds!
A wheel alignment over here is about ?27!!! :cry:
Based on the fact that I did 65 laps at Winton last month with -3.0 degrees neg camber on the front - and its just not enough. Tire wear is high on the outside working front tire and temp is 20 degrees hotter on the front outside - than the middle and inner. The wheel alignment cost $55 (AUD) that's about 20p in British pounds!
Ah so you have been testing, so why not say earlier??
Watch out that your toe is set to factory settings because it will give you some duff temp feedback if it isn't - too much toe in gives excessive wear and temp on the outside and vice - versa.
You should really only change one thing at once before testing again so you know exactly what has done what, not easy though I know from experience.
You must have some pretty hard suspension on there to need more than 3' neg - having it too hard at the front will cause understeer, it's very common for people to go too far with spring strengths, harder isn't always better - the strut needs to compress a bit, the more it compresses the more camber you will get.
Another mod I found which worked well was increasing the castor angle on the front struts. I don't know what the Q4 suspension looks like, but I had to re-engineer mine a bit to make it adjustable here.
A wheel alignment over here is about ?27!!! :cry:
That's too cheap to be true, especially darn Sarf! They charge ?40 cash in the trade for 4 wheel alignment. Is the rear adjustable on a Q4?
You must know somebody.......
Another mod I found which worked well was increasing the castor angle on the front struts. I don't know what the Q4 suspension looks like, but I had to re-engineer mine a bit to make it adjustable here.
Absolutely, more castor gives more dynamic camber.
I found some toe-out work pretty well on FWD cars to cure understeer on a slow track. It does wear the tires too :).
I've been always interested in ackerman steering, as it gives dynamic toe-out, but as you know it is pretty hard to make it configurable on a regular car.
That's too cheap to be true, especially darn Sarf! They charge ?40 cash in the trade for 4 wheel alignment. Is the rear adjustable on a Q4?
You must know somebody.......
The rear is not adjustable at all. ?27 was just for the tracking...not sure on 4 wheel alignment jobs.
I know a few people but never well enough to sneak it in for a cheap job at the end of the day..
?35-40 roujd here too :(
With four cars in the household I need to find a DIY route!
wrinx
Absolutely, more castor gives more dynamic camber.
I found some toe-out work pretty well on FWD cars to cure understeer on a slow track. It does wear the tires too :).
I've been always interested in ackerman steering, as it gives dynamic toe-out, but as you know it is pretty hard to make it configurable on a regular car.
Do you think that the suspension arms on the Q4 could be made adjustable for castor?
?35-40 roujd here too :(
With four cars in the household I need to find a DIY route!
wrinx
The proper equipment is quite expensive and DIY routes are quite time consuming, it can be done though as it's only basic geometry. A google search should throw something up, try adding 'string' to your search words. :smile:
Mmm....
http://www.ahspares.co.uk/products/GUNSONS-TRACKRITE-MSC217.aspx
http://www.toolsbypost.com/product.php?id=273
Or true DIY:
http://www.beardmorebros.co.uk/website%20pages/how%20to/tracking.htm
wrinx
Do you think that the suspension arms on the Q4 could be made adjustable for castor?
Can't tell, i haven't been looking/thinking on the suspension yet on this car - just a set of yellow konis works pretty fine in the snow and on the street for me at this moment. Some custom arms will surely do the job, but not exactly street legal :)
jimnielsen
15-12-08, 03:49
Some thoughts on using the 24mm rear anti roll bar...
I used the new 24mm rear anti roll bar that I have had made for the first time (on the racetrack - here at Phillip Island.) Body roll is much more well controlled in all circumstances, and understeer is improved in medium speed and fast corners. All in all it results in faster lap times. Understeer in slow (2nd gear 60kph) corners is still an issue. Unfortunately I have damaged the outside edge of the front tyres.... I am not 100% sure why, but I am going to have to find tyres that are better suited to track use than the ones I am using currently. As you can see in the pic, the tyres are trying to come off the front rim....
jimn~
Some thoughts on using the 24mm rear anti roll bar...
I used the new 24mm rear anti roll bar that I have had made for the first time (on the racetrack - here at Phillip Island.) Body roll is much more well controlled in all circumstances, and understeer is improved in medium speed and fast corners. All in all it results in faster lap times. Understeer in slow (2nd gear 60kph) corners is still an issue. Unfortunately I have damaged the outside edge of the front tyres.... I am not 100% sure why, but I am going to have to find tyres that are better suited to track use than the ones I am using currently. As you can see in the pic, the tyres are trying to come off the front rim....
jimn~
Definitely a problem of tyres, not alignment ... you could easily see that the rim is in a good angle, but the tyre wants to come off ... get some real tyres with hard board.
Exactely as J1V says. What tyres do you use? I would say that Michelin and Bridgestone are the best when it comes to the cord structure. Pirelli and Yokohama are probably also good enough. I changed from Kumho to Yokohama and found the tyres to suddenly survive a track day. The drawback is that I had to go from 205/45-16 to 205/50-16 and had to go for the old Yokohama X-pattern tyre which generates a lot of noise.
What front anti-roll bar do you use?
In low speed you are often not so depending on the chassis balance and sometimes turn-in capability could make the difference. I have driven series 1 and 2 cars which feels far less agile than my series 3 car due to the lower steering gear ratio. A slightly stiffer front anti-roll bar increases steering reaction which makes the car get more "thrown" into the corner which in turn transfers more load to the rear wheels.
An interesting comparison (as I see it :)) is between my 155 Q4 and a friend's 75 Turbo. The 75 works much better in long corners, in steady state cornering and in high speed cornering. The 155 works better in slow corners, in short/transient corners and in corners which you accelerates out off. If you consider the chassis differences between these two cars (both had the same level of modifications), you might find a key to how to improve low speed cornering.
My vote is for slicks.
It's not an under inflation problem is it?
jimnielsen
15-12-08, 21:12
I know looks like an under inflation problem - but I started with 31 PSI front and rear. After 8 laps pressure was 39 PSI. Temp on outside edge was 70 degrees C - Ambient air temp was 23 degrees and track temp certainly less than thirty.
I am planning on giving this tyre a go : -
http://www.fsport.com.au/fsport_siteroot/popups/kumho/v70a.html
Has anyone used it as a track tyre? They are quite expensive - $360.0 (AUD) each. Apart from the Federal 595RSR tyre (that is currently on the car) these Kumho v70a tyres are the only 'R type' ones that I can find in 205/16/45 size. I may go to slicks next year - but then I have to move up to "racing class" - something I was hoping to avoid for a little while.
The anti roll bar on the front is the standard one.
I am interested in adding some castor angle on the front struts (as has been mentioned here) in an attempt to gain a little more camber under cornering - although the wheel in the picture does still seem to have tome negative camber..Has anybody tried this on a Q4? Mine had the D2 struts.
thanks, jimn~
Steve Webb
15-12-08, 22:13
I had the same problem a few years back on track, and I think it is pretty much down to tyre construction. I was running Yoko A539s and it didn't matter what pressure they were at, in low speed corners they were trying to pull themselves off the rims.
What width are the tyres and what is the rim width?
Not sure how you would go about adding Castor as both the top and bottom of the strut seem pretty fixed to me. The only way would be to slot the holes that the suspension top mount bolts through, but then you have the problem of locating the top mount securely!
Is the tyre issue the driving force in you wanting more -ve camber under cornering? Personally I'd try looking for tyres with a stiffer sidewall construction first.
jimnielsen
15-12-08, 22:25
The tyres are 205/16 R45 - the standard width. 7" rims...
I may try these..
http://www.stuckey.com.au/tyres_details.aspx?TyreName=DZ03G
but in 225/16 R45.
jimn~
Steve Webb
15-12-08, 22:30
225's may be just a little too wide for 7" rims. I'm fairly sure the Toyo's I've got at the moment need a 7.5" rim for a 225\40 section.
jimnielsen
16-12-08, 01:40
yes - I agree that 7 1/2 would be better, but many WRX's run the these 225's as a track tyre here on 7's. - and I only have 7's at the moment :)
What temps did you have across the tyre, outside edge, inside and centre? This is how you check for over/under inflation.
I use normal road tyres sometimes and never have this problem, I'll see if I can get a pic later as we recently wore some down to the string on a concrete track (very coarse) and there is no sidewall damage, it's just worn smooth.
[QUOTE=Steve Webb;11230]I had the same problem a few years back on track, and I think it is pretty much down to tyre construction. I was running Yoko A539s and it didn't matter what pressure they were at, in low speed corners they were trying to pull themselves off the rims.
QUOTE]
To be fair, any tyre will want to pull itself off the rim! Did yours have any bad damage to them like Jims has?
Steve Webb
16-12-08, 10:24
[QUOTE=Steve Webb;11230]I had the same problem a few years back on track, and I think it is pretty much down to tyre construction. I was running Yoko A539s and it didn't matter what pressure they were at, in low speed corners they were trying to pull themselves off the rims.
QUOTE]
To be fair, any tyre will want to pull itself off the rim! Did yours have any bad damage to them like Jims has?
Yep, excessive shoulder wear with chunks of rubber missing, also people trackside questioning what tyre pressures I was using as they thought they were under inflated. I was running 38psi cold at the front.
Kumho Ecsta V70A = NO
I have tried different compounds, but they can not handle the front weight. They even over heat during braking (with good brakes) and has no control once you turn the steering wheel.
Pirelli PZero Corsa are available in 205/45-16 at about €230 each.
I did consider 225/45-16, but it requires 8" rims and it is extremely critical to get the lateral match strut/caliper/wheel arch.
cuore_sportivo_155
16-12-08, 18:30
I'm going for toyo R888 in 195/50 r16 on 7" wide rims, but then I have a 2.0 8v which is a fair bit lighter than a q4... but still worth considering as this size is less likely to run of the rim....
jimnielsen
16-12-08, 21:25
Thats great info about the Kumho V70a, #84 - Its great to hear from somebody who has actually USED the tyre in question! Ad I have to use 'something' - though not till the 18th of Jan - I will probably give the Dunlop DZ03G a shot in 225/45R16. I will report back and let you know how that goes!
I have the same problem with the outer side of the tyre in the track I use toyo r888 195/50/15
my first mistake is that I put them on 6" rims
all the outer of the tyre front and back is gone to the first 4 laps
I raise the pressure to 40 psi ,match better but still a problem
I use the same tyre on 7" rims and I make 30 laps with out a serious wear at the side
as I can see from your tyre the pressure that you use is low
and this because the centre of the tyre is with out any wear
I have 36 psi in all the tyres at start and am going to try 38psi that I believe is better
I going to raise the pressure until I see that the centre of the tyre have bigger wear .
205/45/16 needs at list 7.5"
and 225/45/16 at list 8+
with your rims go for 195/?/16
it is the best that you can do
and I see that this recommends and from the others
One thing you should have in mind when discussing tyres for track use is that for road tyres you use the pressure to adjust the structural stiffness - as a consequence the tyre will run cooler with higher pressure since structural flex is responsible for a large extent of the heat generation. For a R classed track tyre, street legal or not, the cord structure is totally different (stronger) and the pressure is used to regulate the temperature - lower pressure => lower temperature.
So, maybe you start at 2,8-3 bar with a good sport tyre, while starting at 1,8-2 bar with a R-tyre. Depending on the compound you might have to start at one pressure, drive two laps and then lower the pressure, otherwise you may destroy the tyre the first laps when the temperature hasn't build up the pressure. In this case you have too soft compound.
Some of the cheaper R-tyres has a cord structure similar to the road tyres, but with a racing compound. The Kumho tyre is an example and the wear pattern is very strange (not only on my car). It is worn out at 25 % and 75%, sen from the outer edge.
jimnielsen
23-12-08, 21:34
Below is a link to a site that has a very nice and easy to read comparison of anti roll bar (sway bar) diamaters and their relative stiffnesses. its From a Subaru WRX site.
http://www.northursalia.com/techdocs/sway/sway.html
Also (from the same site) is this:
http://www.northursalia.com/techdocs/frontsuspension/frontsuspension.html
It is just an exploded view diagram of the WRX front suspension. What is interesting is how similar it is to the Q4 setup.
There is a huge amount of information on the web about WRX's used on the track and the strategies that they use - both technical and driving style - to combat understeer.
I thought that this one was particularly interesting...
http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/suspension-wheels/20766-wrx-driving-tips-thread.html
cheers for Christmas.
jim.
jimnielsen
12-01-09, 10:46
Hi.
I have had a part number made up here at Pedders Suspension in Bendigo, Australia for a 24mm rear antil roll bar for the 155 Q4. It is their part number: SXR18
I have just had another of these bars made for "na15575" a member of this forum from Greece.
The bar is $310 AUD (including shipping it back from Sydney to Bendigo) - approx 160 Euro.
Shipping from Australia to Europe is $165 AUD - approx 82 Euro.
you can contact Pedders Bendigo here...
http://www.pedders.com.au/storeFinder/1/store27 - ask for Brendan!
I can take care of shipping the bar to you if need be. The manufacturer has my original bar to copy from. The bar has no tabs (the little ears that attach the bar to the body about 6" along from the main attachment point.) Just remove the one from the existing standard bar.
Cheers, Jimn~
Excellent!
And I suppose it was possible to get it in 22 mm as well? Or would you recommend 24 mm on a "time-to-time race car"?
/A
jimnielsen
12-01-09, 11:27
Should be no problem to make it in 22mm - just tell brendan
At Pedders!
Cheers
Hi Jim,
I am very interested in having one of these made. I will contact you about it soon :)
Give me a shout when you do...if I can stretch to one it might help with the postage or even the overall cost ;)
How about a UK group buy???
wrinx
Give me a shout when you do...if I can stretch to one it might help with the postage or even the overall cost ;)
How about a UK group buy???
wrinx
Will do :)
Add me to the list please.... I would go for 24 mm
Steve Webb
09-08-09, 08:55
Have any of you spoken with Balance motorsport in the UK, they proclaim to be offer custom made ARB's. They do quote a 12 week lead time, but if you are going for a bulk buy shipping might work out a little cheaper.
Will give them a buzz on Monday. The advantage with Pedders is that they dont need one of us to send an original to them as Jim has already had a couple made. Oh and the price is very good!
Will let you know what Balance say though.
Whiteline in the UK will make a front ARB for V6 and TS 155s for ?130 but need a minimum order of 10.
Thanks Jack....the state of the pound these days may just make it cheaper to sort this in the UK, especially considering shipping costs....but of course that'll change dependant upon how many join the buy :D
wrinx
Another thought, have we decided 22 or 24mm?
Any opinions from the Lancia guys?
wrinx
Good question. I don't want to be caught out with it. EvoDelta, I think was initially saying it could be too much. We need Jim and na's opinion really.
I spoke to Balance Motorsport and he said that if he was to do it, he would send an original bar off to Whiteline in Australia, he said the price to probably be over ?250 for this which means the one Jim had made is better value for us to get made and shipped.
Good question. I don't want to be caught out with it. EvoDelta, I think was initially saying it could be too much. We need Jim and na's opinion really.
I wonder if 22mm will be enough???
wrinx
From what I've read in Jim's posts, it seems he is happy with 24 mm rear ARB. But he is using a very stiff setup for the front since he is racing. IMHO it would be hard to say without testing how a car would behave with 24 mm rear ARB together with a softer front setup (e.g. for street driving), a more heavy car as compared to Jim's, etc). But I guess rear end would be more twisty
I personally prepare a car for a racing on a tarmac (including weight reduction ('plastic' side and rear windows, etc.)) therefore I would go for 24 mm (and suspension set up will be similar to Jim's).
jimnielsen
11-08-09, 22:39
Just one more thing I would say about using the 24mm bar on a standard (or near standard) street car... As a standard car, the Q4 is heavy and modestly powered - in my opinion it simply does not have enough power in stock trim to make tail out oversteer an issue whatever the diameter of the bar. It does provide much stronger control over body roll than the standard rear bar. It would be good to get na's opinion as well - I think his may be a street car.
hallo I have use the 24mm like jims (thank you Jim)
my car is for road use and I use normal absorber
the 24 is very good for the road use
the car makes a little roll site-to-site (before was very big)
but I never notice the tail to go out (i love to have the tail go out but it is the same like when i use the oem)
the tail go out only if the road is very slide and you push it (but you can control the car very easy)
the 24 mm is going to be fine for the road use but the car need and the front arb to de perfect
I don't remember well but eibach give 24mm rear and 26 mm front for the 2.5
the 22mm not ever try it
the 24mm only in the rear if you don't have the front bar is very little
the car is too heavy
i belive that 26 for the rear and 28 for the front
it will be perfect for road use
i verify it from eibach it use
26mm front 22mm rear and it is 2-times adjustable???
the kit is for all the 155 exept Q4
so if eibach makes this for the same and not so heavy car like Q4
i believe that
28 front and 26 rear it is good for a fast road use
Q4 is 300 kg more
if you go for a buy i would like to have one front
Thanks na. So 24mm could be a mid way step! Sounds like it is safe for the road though :)
it is very safe for the road
the rear s-way bar by its own can't stop the roll of the body
we must put and the front to see dig difference to the roll
and we talk that the suspension is near to the oem espasially the springs
peter holst
13-08-09, 11:48
where do we get one for the front?
jimnielsen
13-08-09, 11:48
I am using 650lb springs in the front.. that sure cuts down on a bit of roll ;) - If someone wants to send me a front anti roll bar I will get a quote from Pedders as to cost..
Its possible that I could use mine, but not until the summer (summer in Australia that is...)
i thing that the front is the same like 2.5v6
or im wrong?
i have a spare one from Q4
if anyone want
i can send it to Jim to make a copy
peter holst
13-08-09, 20:46
I want one. got the one for the rear
front ARB in 2.5 V6 and Q4 are different.
i thing that the front is the same like 2.5v6
or im wrong?
peter holst
14-08-09, 08:45
I have got one
peter holst
14-08-09, 09:33
is it possible to make it adjustable?
jimnielsen
14-08-09, 11:50
Peter, if you make the bar in the same form factor as the original it will be very difficult to make it adjustable because there is very little height between the standard attachment point and the bar - so the angles that you can get are too small - so the changes in leverage over the bar would not be worthwhile - in my opinion. If you want to make an adjustable one I would simply use "off the shelf" blades and straight hollow tube.
peter holst
14-08-09, 13:52
where do I get the blades?
peter holst
07-09-09, 20:00
Peter, if you make the bar in the same form factor as the original it will be very difficult to make it adjustable because there is very little height between the standard attachment point and the bar - so the angles that you can get are too small - so the changes in leverage over the bar would not be worthwhile - in my opinion. If you want to make an adjustable one I would simply use "off the shelf" blades and straight hollow tube.
Hi Jim!
are you sure they can make one as the original - many bends?
If yes I will like to send an original rollbar down under
hi jim
have you or someone else send the front antiroll bar of the Q4 to pedders for sample or you made one?
im asking you because i m in touch with them for the front anti roll
and im going to send them a spare one that i have for sample.
i want you opinion if you can please ....
what diameter are you suggest?
im thing of 30mm
Hi all,
It is a lot of guesses around chassi settings, including my own 23/22 mm ARB, yellow Konis and Eibach springs . Have anyone made any calculations of the chassis setup? What facts did D2 base their spring/damper kit on? Did they take the anti roll bars in account? What was their conclusion?
I haven't been in the vehicle dynamics buisness for many years, but if you are willing to help with measurements I can look at it and ask some experts. I have my car lifted up in the garage, so I can off course check some parameters myself. I have however no data on springs and dampers and would need help with angles with the car on the ground.
So, anyone interested in doing analysis on the chassis settings?
/A
peter holst
18-01-10, 08:33
I would like one for the front too
the sure is that i ll send mine as a sample to pedders....
after that the mold is mine as he says to me
so after i make mine you can contact him and ask to make one for you
in the desired diameter you want
you must wait adout a month for this i delive
jimnielsen
19-01-10, 23:20
Peter, aren't you concerned that a larger front ARB will increase understeer?
jim.
peter holst
21-01-10, 14:36
hi jim!
i am not concerned because i have read the many grale owners only change the front ARB for a lager one and that it reduced understeer. I know the the theori says something else........
jimnielsen
22-01-10, 00:02
well, I will try anything once..It would be good if someone could try out a bigger on and then report back!
jim ...
hi jim!
i am not concerned because i have read the many grale owners only change the front ARB for a lager one and that it reduced understeer. I know the the theori says something else........
I think something may have got lost in translation there Peter as the facts are completely incorrect.
I have never ever seen a thicker front ARB on an integrale.
peter holst
23-01-10, 14:20
i don?t think so but i admid it sounds strange
Increase the strength of the rear bar to decrease underseer/increase oversteer
Increase the strength of the front bar to reduce oversteer, increase understeer.
You could of course increase both by the same amount to give the car less roll, but retain the same understeer/oversteer characteristics. Or the rear by slighly more than the front, etc, etc....
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