View Full Version : FMIC's
jimnielsen
17-09-08, 11:37
What do you guys think of this style of intercooler with both inlet and outlet on the same side - this would be easier to implement on a q4?
http://justjap.com/store/product.php?productid=17394&cat=298&page=1
jimn~
I have the same idea for some time and the only problem i see is that the intake pipe would heat the other pipe so you would gain some temperature there.But i thought that you could just wrap it in heat wrap and this problem is gone.
With such an IC you can make a very short pipeline so there would be no more lag then on the original.
Leave it on the shelf, it is the worst type of intercooler on the entire planet.
The Fiat Coupe guys used to fit a similar type (think it was Proalloy?) The ones that escaped being weighed in for scrap can be picked up for about 10 pence.
I thought it was better to have straight through flow, with the veins going with the direction of airflow?
But I know bugger all about ICs :lol:
wrinx
Like this....
http://justjap.com/store/product.php?productid=16944&cat=298&page=1
wrinx
I totaly agree with Evodelta. If you find a report of pressure drop over IC and cooling efficiency you wouldn't consider the item if you have other alternatives.
jimnielsen
17-09-08, 21:24
ok then :0 ...
can anyone post a link to a 'more suitable' FMIC that has some specs so that I can see if I can obtain a similar unit here.
thanks, jimn~
I totaly agree with Evodelta. If you find a report of pressure drop over IC and cooling efficiency you wouldn't consider the item if you have other alternatives.
Your right about the pressure drop, but this thing will cool the air well, the problem will be not actually being able to fit the air that you need through it!
It is called a 'Double pass' design and is used for cooling liquid, never air.
Anyone have the dimensions of the original cooler? A labelled pic is needed with thickness, width and length of tube that the charge air goes through.
ok then :0 ...
can anyone post a link to a 'more suitable' FMIC that has some specs so that I can see if I can obtain a similar unit here.
thanks, jimn~
What dimensions can you fit in? Where do the inlet/outlets need to be? What BHP are you headed for?
Do I have to guess? :confused:
When trying to find out what exactly you can fit in you have to make a mock up first to check, I made a wooden box with inlet and outlet pipes on (made from aerosol caps!) and slotted it in before ordering.
jimnielsen
18-09-08, 10:45
I'm relatively new to turbo cars - and I certainly haven't considered all the issues yet with regards to FMIC's. I will have a closer look at the pictures on this site to see what is achievable without having to cut out too much of the front of the car. But the max HP I am aiming for is about 350 - but this will have to take place over time.
Hi!
Ok i have the same problem to decide for a good FMIC.I am aiming also around 350(400 max!!) i would mount it like Gary did(except i wouldn t cut the crossmember)
http://forum.berlinasportivo.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=239&d=1212922008
I would go from one of this selection:
http://shop.wiltec.info/index.php/cat/c189_Ladeluftkuehler.html
So i need a few advices and i would be very thankful :)
Evodelta?Anybody?
Juan AR155Q4
30-09-08, 00:00
Why no fitting a water-cooler?
No-one answered my last questions:
Anyone have the dimensions of the original cooler? A labelled pic is needed with thickness, width and length of tube that the charge air goes through.
What power are you headed for?
What size hole do you have to play with?
The first question is the most important one I need to start a discussion, the second two not so much. It takes more than one person to hold a debate and some hard facts to kick off a tutorial. Come on guys, everyone is welcome to give comments!
[I]Anyone have the dimensions of the original cooler?
I have one in the attick. I'll try to take a few pictures and get the meassurement for you tonight.
Greetings,
Marc
Juan AR155Q4
30-09-08, 12:00
From another topic:
The core of the IC is 310x205mm.
I can measure the full shape, including plastic end caps, if you need?
wrinx
Evodelta,
What do you think about using a water-cooler?
This is what I am after, T= Thickness L = Length W = Width:
Water coolers? Be patient, we will discuss. :smile:
This is what I am after, T= Thickness L = Length W = Width:
Water coolers? Be patient, we will discuss. :smile:
Patient, patient, I'll be a sick patient hurry! :rolleyes:
Juan AR155Q4
30-09-08, 19:43
The core of the IC is 310x205mm.
I can measure the full shape, including plastic end caps, if you need?
wrinx
65mm, will measure the whole thing if anyone needs it.
wrinx
Collected from other posts.
Well we got the thickness as 65mm, which is the length and width?
You guys are hard work......
C'mon Wrinky, pull yer finger out yer ass. :tongue2:
Oi...I'm havin' me dinner :lol:
The core is 310 wide and 205 high...do you want the plastic bits too?
wrinx
Juan AR155Q4
30-09-08, 19:54
310x205, posted twice before.
We?re hard but you?re blind:tongue2:
Just had mine, do you want a chip? (Mcains, not Evocars). :tasty:
Thanks for the info, so if you measured one of the plastic end tanks it would be 65 x 310? And the charge air (from the turbo) travelling through the IC has to go 205mm right?
310x205, posted twice before.
We?re hard but you?re blind:tongue2:
This is the whole point - we need to be sure which is which, this is important.
Just had mine, do you want a chip? (Mcains, not Evocars). :tasty:
Thanks for the info, so if you measured one of the plastic end tanks it would be 65 x 310? And the charge air (from the turbo) travelling through the IC has to go 205mm right?
No, the cooler core is 310x205x65...the plastic ends are on top of that.
I'll go measure it now....never mind letting the dinner go down, I'll get indigestion just for you ;)
wrinx
No, I don't need the plastic end tanks, I'm just trying to confirm you have the core dims the right way around, what I mean is where they clip onto the core they will measure 65 x 310 ? I think they do.
No, 205x65mm.
http://forum.berlinasportivo.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=414&d=1222778464
Core
L=310
W=205
T=65
Overall (includes ends of pipes)
L=485
W=305
This is good....from http://www.halme.fi/Q4/mods.html
http://www.halme.fi/Q4/data/intercoolers.jpg
wrinx
Now we are clear, hallelujah - thankyou.
I'll put something together......
Intercooler theory and practice Part one
Abbreviations:
IC = Intercooler
Ambient = The temp of the air outside the car
Charge air = the air coming from the turbo to the engine
Tubes or tube length = This is the passageways that the charge air goes through.
AKA = As commonly known as...
CFM = Cubic feet per Minute (A measure of airflow)
I don't like imperial measurements, we (in the UK) have been Metric since 1971. BUT for the sake of simplicity here I am going to write in inches (") because it makes the numbers easier to digest for you.
Ok, let's start with the basics, the turbo on an engine compresses the air so more of it can be forced into the engine: More air (and petrol to match) = more power.
The main trade off is that compressing air also makes it hot, this is where the intercooler comes in - to cool the charge air. Cool air = more power AND reliability - hot air causes uncontrolled detonation with in the combustion chamber which in turn leads to major engine damage and failure. Colder air is more dense (It contains more oxygen) so it gives more power.
The intercooler must meet two criteria, the first we just covered, the second is where most people mess up; Tuners, 'cooler manufacturers, even car manufacturers: *It must be able to flow enough air for the engine to breathe properly*, get it too small and you will strangle the engine and lose you power.
Let's look at a 'cooler in detail, there are two types of core: Bar & plate and tube & fin, it refers to the way they are manufactured and the shape of the tubes, there are some minor advantages/disadvantages, but they are not really worth mentioning. B&P is slightly more desireable, but not worth fighting over.
Bar and plate detail:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/Deltona_II/Charge%20air%20cooling/DSC01154.jpg
Tube and fin detail:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/Deltona_II/Charge%20air%20cooling/DSC00085.jpg
Take a look at the zig zag fins, these are known as 'Turbulators' or fins, this is because they cause turbulance in the air. Basically the hot air hits and bounces over the turbulators as it goes through the tubes, when it does this it loses its heat, the fins then pass this heat (by convection) to the outside of the cooler, a similar process then happens - cooler ambient air passes through the fins and cools them.
It is all down to heat transfer. The next facts are very important:
Turbulators slow the air to take the heat from them, the longer the tubes, the more you slow down the air, (velocity) do we want the air to slow right down? Of course not!! Slow lazy air = bad throttle response, AKA: Turbolag. Loss of power, economy etc.
FACT:
In a good efficient core the majority of air cooling is done in the first few inches of tube.
The rest is just waste, yes it drops the temp a little bit more, but nothing worth shouting about and is more than offset by the fact that that the air has practically gone to sleep....
What is a good figure here? About 7 to 8 inches, 12 - 16 as a max.
7 - 8"? Really?
Yep.
So why do aftermarket manufacturers make 'double pass' intercoolers which make the air go through 48" of tube and a U bend?
To make money out of people who don't know anything about ICs. Take a look here: http://www.forgemotorsport.co.uk/content.asp?inc=product&cat=1703INT&product=FMINTMK4F
They either don't know what they are doing or it is a blatant rip off, that's nearly ?1000!!!!
And it's crap!! Is the temp chart for real??
Are there any flow figures (CFM)? Pressure drop? MPG? Power? Nope, I wonder why....
So with what you now know, In the link provided here: http://shop.wiltec.info/index.php/cat/c189_Ladeluftkuehler.html
You would go for No. 2 (better than No.1)
There is more, a lot more.....
Later I can explain this * earlier statement.
Anything anyone doesn't understand so far? Don't be shy, it's no problem to discuss if you don't.
Anything anyone doesn't understand so far? Don't be shy, it's no problem to discuss if you don't.
I can follow you, please continue. I find it very clarefying :smile:
Greetings,
Marc
Interesting, thanks...so Sammi's custom IC in the pic above is a good design?
...and all these really wide and slim FMIC are a waste of money?
wrinx
Interesting post. What I would like to see, which is easier said than done - is a proper measured comparison of the standard cooler against others so that it's efficiency/inefficiency can be meausured.
If i understood right than this one:
Klik (http://cgi.ebay.de/Intercooler-Ladeluftkuehler-LLK-460x160x70-Turbo_W0QQitemZ250285445660QQcmdZViewItem?hash=ite m250285445660&_trkparms=72%3A1277%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C 240%3A1308&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)
...is a very efficient design?
But the main problem for me is installing such a tall IC on the Q4..if you put a custom taller one in the original place the airflow is catastrophical if you go FMIC then as you can see from Gery's installation, you need to customize the crossmember and there is still not much place(he uses a 23cm tal(N.6)l the N.2 from the link is 30cm....).
Interesting, thanks...so Sammi's custom IC in the pic above is a good design?
Correct, it's been made larger in all the right places (although I do not know the thickness, I am assuming same as or thicker than OE?) From dealing with Amworks in the past and seeing some of their cars I would say that they are a good company and do know what they are doing.
...and all these really wide and slim FMIC are a waste of money?
wrinx
Now you are getting your terms mixed up, you need to go wider, thicker and not longer....
Interesting post. What I would like to see, which is easier said than done - is a proper measured comparison of the standard cooler against others so that it's efficiency/inefficiency can be meausured.
Correct, later I will show some testing I did, sadly not on a Q4, but you will get the idea.
If i understood right than this one:
Klik (http://cgi.ebay.de/Intercooler-Ladeluftkuehler-LLK-460x160x70-Turbo_W0QQitemZ250285445660QQcmdZViewItem?hash=ite m250285445660&_trkparms=72%3A1277%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C 240%3A1308&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)
...is a very efficient design?
In theory, yes, more efficient - we'll get back to that exact cooler later on.
But the main problem for me is installing such a tall IC on the Q4..if you put a custom taller one in the original place the airflow is catastrophical if you go FMIC then as you can see from Gery's installation, you need to customize the crossmember and there is still not much place(he uses a 23cm tal(N.6)l the N.2 from the link is 30cm....).
I don't have a Q4 so it is difficult for me to say how to or what fits....
You guys will have to help there with pics and diagrams. Again, please refer to a 'coolers dimensions correctly: Length (of tube) and end section is width x thickness otherwise we will get lost.
This is what i was talking about:
http://forum.berlinasportivo.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=150&d=1210008194
http://forum.berlinasportivo.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=239&d=1212922008
http://forum.berlinasportivo.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=255&d=1214122354
And this is the 23 cm wide IC core(550x230) with cutted crossmember ....
I found this one look quite good for a Q4 becouse the in and out is on the same side :)
Click (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Parts-Accessories___CXRacing-Intercooler-23x11x3-ECLIPSE-TALON-DSM-Supra_W0QQitemZ230295311132QQddnZPartsQ20Q26Q20Acc essoriesQQddiZ2811QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item23029531 1132&_trkparms=72%3A543%7C39%3A1%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245)
Now you are getting your terms mixed up, you need to go wider, thicker and not longer....
Yes....I meant length :doh:
wrinx
I found this one look quite good for a Q4 becouse the in and out is on the same side :)
Click (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Parts-Accessories___CXRacing-Intercooler-23x11x3-ECLIPSE-TALON-DSM-Supra_W0QQitemZ230295311132QQddnZPartsQ20Q26Q20Acc essoriesQQddiZ2811QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item23029531 1132&_trkparms=72%3A543%7C39%3A1%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245)
Isn't that similar to one mentioned earlier, very bad design as it doesn't allow the air to flow through effectively?
wrinx
Nope...this is the wrong design
http://justjap.com/store/images/P/cpdocooler45030076.jpg
Which really enters and flows out on the same side...now look this one and i bet you will see the difference and what i mean in a moment:)
http://s1.promotionsupplies.com/ebay/just-intercoolers4/images/intercoolers/au-ic0005_23x11x3_v3.jpg
Ok, I see the difference...
wrinx
jimnielsen
01-10-08, 10:17
Thanks for your work on this, Evodelta - I appreciate it. looking forwards to chapter 2!
jimn~
Great stuff, now I can see you guys are begining to understand how to size a 'cooler properly. It's the number of tubes, not the length which matters.
To make a basic comparison, you have a guy who can run a marathon and you stick a drinking straw in his mouth, tell him to breathe through it and send him off, he gets 1/2 a mile before collapsing with exhaustion, why? Because he cannot get enough air to his lungs, so you pick him up, dust him off and give him a drink and a rest then stick a 3" pipe in his mouth and send him on his way again, he finishes the 5 mile marathon..... Your engine is just like the marathon runner.
Now for some basic maths, if you look inside a 'cooler:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/Deltona_II/Charge%20air%20cooling/DSC01153.jpg
You will see that roughly half is tube and half is blank, so only 50% of the total area will actually flow air. Lets take the Q4 cooler and compare it, thanks to Wrinks we know it measures 8 x 2.5", so a quick sum gives us 20sq" remember, only is half is tube so:
8 x 2.5 = 20 x .5 = 10sq"
An integrale 'cooler measures 8 x 3 (x .5) so = 12sq"
This:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FRONT-MOUNT-INTERCOOLER-MK1-GOLF-GTi-20V-TURBO-CUPRA-1_W0QQitemZ220284692656QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item220 284692656&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A1%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
Is a pathetic 9"
And then we move onto this complete mess of an attempt, oh yes, the good old 3 x 12 x 24 double pass (oh my god):
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Large-TwinPass-intercooler-600-Series_W0QQitemZ320303045622QQcmdZViewItem?hash=it em320303045622&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A1%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
The air has to travel a whopping 48" to get through it and it has a flow area of 9". :doh:
It flows less air than the OE Q4 cooler.
Jeez, I bet you could measure the turbo lag with an egg timer. :doh:
Glad you never bought one now eh Jim? :rolleyes:
How do we know for certain we are on the right track? Where to look for good designs? Other newer cars of course, they don't always get it right, but here are a few good examples:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/Deltona_II/Charge%20air%20cooling/SubSTIcooler.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/Deltona_II/Charge%20air%20cooling/PugCooler.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/Deltona_II/Charge%20air%20cooling/VWcooler.jpg
The last one is a VW, check out the well shaped end tanks, designed to give well balanced flow to all the tubes. Also note Subarus nice job, short tubes, compact and the idea of twin pipes to equalise the flow again. The Pug one is just good basic design, tapered end tanks, lots of tubes, a very bad 90' bend on the end pipe, but still, you get the idea.
So, an off-the-shelf good design? Let's look at this:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/Deltona_II/Charge%20air%20cooling/Justcoolers.jpg
First of it's suspiciously cheap (it's Chinese), the end tanks are not really tapered enough and the tubes maybe, just maybe too short, but look at the flow capacity : 30sq" That's 3 times as much as the Q4 item! If you can make it fit, at $80 it's got to be worth a try....
This one:
http://shop.wiltec.info/product_info.php/info/p2631_Ladeluftkuehler---INTERCOOLER-No--002.html/XTCsid/d327c8fbefca37dee43821fb5372eb41
Again looks a little cheap, take a look at the tubes inside, they seem a lot smaller than the bars, the inlet/outlets are a strange 80mm for some reason (75 is more common) and you may find pipes hard to match, this one:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Medium-Intercooler-450-Series-300mm-High-76mm-Inlet_W0QQitemZ220284902403QQihZ012QQcategoryZ4312 0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1713.m153.l1262
Looks similar, but better built.
Isn't the last one on the extremes of tube length at 18"?
wrinx
This would flow approx. 50% more air and may fit the same space as the OE cooler....if my calcs are correct!
http://shop.wiltec.info/product_info.php/info/p2632_Ladeluftkuehler---INTERCOOLER-No--003.html/XTCsid/d327c8fbefca37dee43821fb5372eb41
wrinx
cuore_sportivo_155
01-10-08, 22:24
keep up the good work, can use this on my 2.4 jtd aswell....
This would flow approx. 50% more air and may fit the same space as the OE cooler....if my calcs are correct!
http://shop.wiltec.info/product_info.php/info/p2632_Ladeluftkuehler---INTERCOOLER-No--003.html/XTCsid/d327c8fbefca37dee43821fb5372eb41
wrinx
Yes, I think that 18" is getting a little long, but still acceptable though - the tubes in a B&P design are bigger compared to T&F so we can go a bit longer and not lose out on flow. It's a bit of a balancing act, but yes, the one in your last link looks like a winner if you could fit it in.
I've had a few PMs in the last few days, I haven't answered 'cos I'm a bit busy, but will get round to it eventually....
This would flow approx. 50% more air and may fit the same space as the OE cooler....if my calcs are correct!
http://shop.wiltec.info/product_info.php/info/p2632_Ladeluftkuehler---INTERCOOLER-No--003.html/XTCsid/d327c8fbefca37dee43821fb5372eb41
wrinx
I know is a long shot...how much BHP you think this IC can support??
http://picasaweb.google.com/jivco.shterev/AlfaROmeoQ4#5103274812593358962
This is a cooler that fits quite easy without any major modifications and front bumper cutting. It is quite good and of course much better than the stock one.
005:core size 550*180*65 Overall size 700*180*65
http://topspeed.bg/product.php?iid=778
It can be easily found on ebay too.
Note: 270BGN is about 140 euros.
I must mention one thing, when talking about intercoolers - the airflow that goes to it to cool it.
Don't forget why they call the subi intercoolers interheaters :)
I totally agree that the OEM should be better than this
This:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FRONT-MOUNT-IN...d=p3286.c0.m14
Is a pathetic 9"
But than again ... 9" against 10" of the OEM, but B&P design ... compared to the "pathetic" airflow the stock IC receives ... guess what, that IC cools a lot better.
I must mention one thing, when talking about intercoolers - the airflow that goes to it to cool it.
Don't forget why they call the subi intercoolers interheaters :)
I totally agree that the OEM should be better than this
But than again ... 9" against 10" of the OEM, but B&P design ... compared to the "pathetic" airflow the stock IC receives ... guess what, that IC cools a lot better.
Does it cool better? Have you tested it?
Some good points, they kick off another chapter - Ducting.
You have to ask if the Subaru design is so bad then why are they still using it after all these years? Correct ducting to a 'cooler will force the air through it making it very efficient, it's only an 'interheater' when not moving, but then no 'cooler works at stand still (unless it has a fan fitted).
FMICs cannot be ducted easily so the air can go around them instead of through - which it does as it will always take the easiest path.
Some good ducting pics:
Grp A integrale, this has a small compact intercooler so they had to make the best of it with an excellent duct, see how it is smaller at the entrance than where it meets the 'cooler face, the air has no way of whirling round and coming back out, it is forced through the intercooler matrix where it cools it down:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/Deltona_II/Charge%20air%20cooling/GrpAIntercooler.jpg
Ducting on a race car:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/Deltona_II/Charge%20air%20cooling/Formula_Renault_Radduct.jpg
See how the rad is fitted at an angle? This makes the air struggle to get through the core and gives better cooling, it also allows a bigger core to be fitted in the same height.
I know is a long shot...how much BHP you think this IC can support??
There is a mathmatical equation we can do to size an intercooler, I did it when designing mine. I will see if I can dig it out and post it up, it does suggest a really big intercooler though.
Does it cool better? Have you tested it?
I admit it - no. I know the temp drop was pretty good at the dyno, and was told by other people the stock was pretty bad. I have not driven that car stock to have some useful data to prove it :)
Some good points, they kick off another chapter - Ducting.
Ducting is the way to effectively cool a intercooler, agree on that. But I do not agree the point that FMIC cannot be ducted.
You have to ask if the Subaru design is so bad then why are they still using it after all these years?
You know very well why - response :)
I never said long FMIC are better at everything, they are better at cooling the intake air, especially at high boost. Pressure drop and losses ... like you said, we have to look at the most OEM IC fitted on real turbo cars and will get the best design and position :)
I admit it - no. I know the temp drop was pretty good at the dyno, and was told by other people the stock was pretty bad. I have not driven that car stock to have some useful data to prove it :)
Ducting is the way to effectively cool a intercooler, agree on that. But I do not agree the point that FMIC cannot be ducted.
You know very well why - response :)
I never said long FMIC are better at everything, they are better at cooling the intake air, especially at high boost. Pressure drop and losses ... like you said, we have to look at the most OEM IC fitted on real turbo cars and will get the best design and position :)
Well, it is not so good to enter a debate with no facts....
Response, yes, power and economy aswell. I have no temp tests on a Subaru, but I bet it cools as good as any other, the Japanese are not stupid.
It depends on how far forward your FMIC is if you are to get a good duct on it, I know mine isn't - it is pressed up against the bumper.
True, a longer intercooler tube will produce cooler air, but it is what we call 'The law of diminishing returns' after the first few inches (7 - 12) the rest only does a little bit more and is offset by the fact that the air has gone to sleep and not even enough can fit through...
Well, it is not so good to enter a debate with no facts....
Response, yes, power and economy aswell. I have no temp tests on a Subaru, but I bet it cools as good as any other, the Japanese are not stupid.
It depends on how far forward your FMIC is if you are to get a good duct on it, I know mine isn't - it is pressed up against the bumper.
True, a longer intercooler tube will produce cooler air, but it is what we call 'The law of diminishing returns' after the first few inches (7 - 12) the rest only does a little bit more and is offset by the fact that the air has gone to sleep and not even enough can fit through...
No arguing, but you ,as much as I do, are being too general too :)
You say only the first few inches (7-12) are cooling - but at what temp of the air entering the cooler :) ?
For example it will not be the same distance if the incoming air is 40 degrees hotter than ambient and if it is 100 degrees hotter than it.
So at different levels of boost that distance will be different.
So, if a longer cooler gives me the ability to run more boost, without going too hot to cause detonation, I will get more power. Even if that will not be the most efficient way because of a bad design IC it will be more than the power achieved with a maxed out, perfectly designed, but small (because of dimension constraints) intercooler :)
Interesting that the heat transfer occurs in the first two to three decimeters. I was first thinking that maybe it was due to laminarisation of the flow, but that isn't likely with the tube&fin concept. So, if the core and airflow is really good it do what it can in a short distance and then there is not much more to get from it.
To something completely different. If you don't modify the entire front and cut up the bumper beam, I would like to compare the Q4 with a mid-engine car, in terms of cooling. In mid-engines the air-to-water-to-air charge air coolers are widely used. An din the very well built Ford Focus RS. I know that the air-to-air has some advantages, but since (A) the main radiator has problem to cool the engine enough during hard operation (track day etc) (B) placing an intercooler in front of the radiator makes A even worse and (C) the water system has an acumulator effect so that you can store cooling capacity when the throttle is closed - I am tempted to say that a air-to-water-to-air charge air cooler would be the better choice for the Q4.
I have a Garrett charge air cooler on the shelf which is as big as two bricks on top of each others (2,1 liter) and did cool 100 C at 720 hp Diesel (~1300 hp petrol) with only 0,1 bar pressure drop. The water temperature was approximately 30 degrees. I have seen some diagrams from air-to-air intercoolers and can say that nothing is near this charge air cooler. It is definitelly worth a thought.
/A
No arguing, but you ,as much as I do, are being too general too :)
You are playing the theorist and have no facts. You have jumped in before I have finished with my theory, we will see some facts when I have explained everything.
Let's not call it arguement, let's call it debate, I can debate with you and I respect your point of view.
I just don't agree with it. :smile:
You say only the first few inches (7-12) are cooling - but at what temp of the air entering the cooler :) ?
For example it will not be the same distance if the incoming air is 40 degrees hotter than ambient and if it is 100 degrees hotter than it.
So at different levels of boost that distance will be different.
So, if a longer cooler gives me the ability to run more boost, without going too hot to cause detonation, I will get more power. Even if that will not be the most efficient way because of a bad design IC it will be more than the power achieved with a maxed out, perfectly designed, but small (because of dimension constraints) intercooler :)
If the air entering an intercooler is too hot then you have the wrong turbo fitted or you are running too much boost on a turbo which is too small (same thing).
So what you are saying (your theory....) is that you have an intercooler which is badly designed so it strangles the engine making it lower powered and laggier than it could be, but then claws some back by being super efficient on the cooling side of things?
You think that you cannot have your cake and eat it, but I think that I can. :smile:
Interesting that the heat transfer occurs in the first two to three decimeters. I was first thinking that maybe it was due to laminarisation of the flow, but that isn't likely with the tube&fin concept. So, if the core and airflow is really good it do what it can in a short distance and then there is not much more to get from it.
To something completely different. If you don't modify the entire front and cut up the bumper beam, I would like to compare the Q4 with a mid-engine car, in terms of cooling. In mid-engines the air-to-water-to-air charge air coolers are widely used. An din the very well built Ford Focus RS. I know that the air-to-air has some advantages, but since (A) the main radiator has problem to cool the engine enough during hard operation (track day etc) (B) placing an intercooler in front of the radiator makes A even worse and (C) the water system has an acumulator effect so that you can store cooling capacity when the throttle is closed - I am tempted to say that a air-to-water-to-air charge air cooler would be the better choice for the Q4.
I have a Garrett charge air cooler on the shelf which is as big as two bricks on top of each others (2,1 liter) and did cool 100 C at 720 hp Diesel (~1300 hp petrol) with only 0,1 bar pressure drop. The water temperature was approximately 30 degrees. I have seen some diagrams from air-to-air intercoolers and can say that nothing is near this charge air cooler. It is definitelly worth a thought.
/A
Some excellent points, can I ask if we get clear of discussing air cooling first and then move onto water cooling later? And could you also get some good pictures of it, especially of what the core looks like inside, it sounds very interesting, what was it taken from?
Yes, we can take water cooling in sa separate thread.
The core comes from NASA's "space suits" for heating the oxygen the astronauts breathe. So it is an old desig today.
This one comes from a Scania DSI9 Marine engine (early 90's). The unit was used as a pre-cooler when developing the current 720/750 hp range of Yanmar pleasure craft engines. That was when I saw the impressive results and sourced one slightky used for my own.
You are playing the theorist and have no facts. You have jumped in before I have finished with my theory, we will see some facts when I have explained everything.
Let's not call it arguement, let's call it debate, I can debate with you and I respect your point of view.
I just don't agree with it. :smile:
If the air entering an intercooler is too hot then you have the wrong turbo fitted or you are running too much boost on a turbo which is too small (same thing).
So what you are saying (your theory....) is that you have an intercooler which is badly designed so it strangles the engine making it lower powered and laggier than it could be, but then claws some back by being super efficient on the cooling side of things?
You think that you cannot have your cake and eat it, but I think that I can. :smile:
I too do respect your theory, and even agree with most of it :)
Just give me an answer why the hell did alfa fitted that waterspray system of the intercooler on this car ???
Talking frome experience Subaru Group A rally car Whit bang and waterspray ( water and some alcohol) intake temp 36 celsius ambient temp was 28 celsius
I too do respect your theory, and even agree with most of it :)
Just give me an answer why the hell did alfa fitted that waterspray system of the intercooler on this car ???
Well I don't know anything about Q4s, so I am the wrong person to ask really, some suggestions:
Homologation purposes.
It was the 'thing' to have back in the day, a trend or a novelty, Subaru used to fit them as standard, I don't know if they still do.
Because the intercooler is crap.
Talking frome experience Subaru Group A rally car Whit bang and waterspray ( water and some alcohol) intake temp 36 celsius ambient temp was 28 celsius
Is that IC waterspray or water injection? Water injection usually has a water/methanol mix.
Ic waterspray
Q4 has waterspray because of homologation ppurpuses ! Waterspray substantialy lowers intake temperatures quite simple pyhisical explanation....
Is that IC waterspray or water injection? Water injection usually has a water/methanol mix.
IC water spray ;), not water injection.
Like I said, the stock IC not that bad, actually it is pretty good, the problem is the q4 design (very low front) and the lack of air to the cooler. That is my opinion, but, like I already said, never drove a stock Q4. However, have a couple of friends around with experience, who said the stock Q4 was very different with/without water in the thank in the trunk, and that tells me one and only thing - the stock IC is not that efficient.
However, with the cheep ebay FMIC i have dynoed the car running 1.3 bar and it worked very fine (by memory it was something about 10 degrees above ambient) and as you very well know, the airflow on the dyno is not at all near to the real airflow of a running car.
Somebody here could give you a pic of the hole in the bumper for the stock intercooler, I checked and I don't have it. But it is really patethic
Putting alcohol into a IC water spray is quite expensive (for us), but it is clever, why?
Water must be sprayed very finely onto the core because it is the action of evaporation which takes away the heat, if the spray is too heavy and the water does not evaporate then you might aswell have not bothered. Alcohol laced water will evaporate quicker than pure water and therefore do the job more efficiently.
However, with the cheep ebay FMIC i have dynoed the car running 1.3 bar and it worked very fine (by memory it was something about 10 degrees above ambient) and as you very well know, the airflow on the dyno is not at all near to the real airflow of a running car.
Somebody here could give you a pic of the hole in the bumper for the stock intercooler, I checked and I don't have it. But it is really patethic
Do you know how would the original IC handle the same ??
Putting alcohol into a IC water spray is quite expensive (for us), but it is clever, why?
Water must be sprayed very finely onto the core because it is the action of evaporation which takes away the heat, if the spray is too heavy and the water does not evaporate then you might aswell have not bothered. Alcohol laced water will evaporate quicker than pure water and therefore do the job more efficiently.
Exactly! You have to generate fine fine mist not drops of water, what most of people do whit strobes for celaning the windscreen you have to use finer strobes. Windscreen fluid is also more efficient for cooling (but only winter version wich has alcohol in it :) ) Italian rally driver cheat on imprezas so that they put dry ice on the IC and also blocks of ice cubes in water tank.....
IC water spray ;), not water injection.
Like I said, the stock IC not that bad, actually it is pretty good, the problem is the q4 design (very low front) and the lack of air to the cooler. That is my opinion, but, like I already said, never drove a stock Q4. However, have a couple of friends around with experience, who said the stock Q4 was very different with/without water in the thank in the trunk, and that tells me one and only thing - the stock IC is not that efficient.
However, with the cheep ebay FMIC i have dynoed the car running 1.3 bar and it worked very fine (by memory it was something about 10 degrees above ambient) and as you very well know, the airflow on the dyno is not at all near to the real airflow of a running car.
Somebody here could give you a pic of the hole in the bumper for the stock intercooler, I checked and I don't have it. But it is really patethic
The way to check if the duct is working is with a Dwyer Magnahelic air pressure guage, they do not cost much:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Dwyer-Magnahelic-2020-ASF-0-20-WC-Pressure-Gauge-NIB_W0QQitemZ130260109964QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item1 30260109964&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177
Ideally you want one in front of the 'cooler and one behind as you can test in one go, it needs high pressure in front and low pressure behind to make it work.
You might be surprised, it may work ok, just don't scrap something because you 'think' it may not be ok, without proof and facts. See my last post on how water spray works, without any airflow it will not work....
Remember also there are many people who think they feel power:
"Wow, I filled my car up with Shell V power, I can really feel it, it's loads faster!"
Yeah right, what you are feeling is a large hole in your wallet giving you a false warm glow........:rolleyes:
Forums are full of 'My mate did this and it was really good" etc, etc. No facts, no figures, just talk.
Me? I like facts, the bullshit stops here....
No I don't. Also, I don't have the exact numbers from that dyno, but if someone has dyno runs with the stock cooler and temp data from it, I could always call the guy, and receive my numbers.
The next runs (1.9 bar) were already with the bigger cooler (the one that I see has become quite popular already here :))
The biggest, that is fitted right now, because of the expected enormous heat from the eaton supercharger is not dynoed yet
Exactly! You have to generate fine fine mist not drops of water, what most of people do whit strobes for celaning the windscreen you have to use finer strobes. Windscreen fluid is also more efficient for cooling (but only winter version wich has alcohol in it :) ) Italian rally driver cheat on imprezas so that they put dry ice on the IC and also blocks of ice cubes in water tank.....
That's not cheating, that's using your head. :smile:
Its cheating. It is specificaly written in FIA rulebooks :). I miss the sound of high compression Meth injected cossie Group A engine!
OK you want facts. There are a few q4's here over 300hp. Some of them even more. Which one of them runs the stock intercooler :)
http://www.redline.lt/magazine/featured-cars/article/article/12/1/
http://www.redline.lt/magazine/uploads/pics/alfa155_1.jpg
this is the only one that comes to my mind, and guess what - 1st it runs a grale cooler, next it is running without one of the hallos, and very possibly with a modified duct. I still believe the cheap ebay FMIC is the easiest and best IC for high boost without modifying the front bumper
On that pic up there - the 4 wholes, next to the halo is the place that the stock IC gets its air ;)
If they fitted a decent intercooler they would have even more power...
It would really help if we had some results from testing a FMIC like j1v told versus something like that (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Front-Mount-Intercooler-280-Series-63mm-Inlets_W0QQitemZ320306228613QQcmdZViewItem?hash=it em320306228613&_trkparms=72%3A1301%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C 240%3A1318&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14) (from those simple calculations it looks like that it has almost 90% more flow area then that j1v told about)in the original place.
So we could estimate what is better...a IC with less flow area but in better position(more air flow) or a better IC with more flow area but less air flow....hmmm...
(A) the main radiator has problem to cool the engine enough during hard operation (track day etc) (B) placing an intercooler in front of the radiator makes A even worse
Yes, that aspect has always bothered me about FMIC....as I only intend to go for about 300bhp max I think an enlarged side mount might suit me better :smile:
Although I've already cut the front bumper now... :rolleyes: :lol:
wrinx
jimnielsen
03-10-08, 22:28
before I change my Q4 to an FMIC (of appropriate design of course :) ) I'd like to measure the intake air temp so that I can compare the data between that of the current intercooler and that of the new.
Does anybody have a datasheet for the standard installed air temp sensor (its in the intake manifold) or know its manufacturer name and part number. I need the info to make sense of the temp info for the datalogger. This way I can use the current one rather than installing a 2nd one (like I have for the map sensor) just to send data to the logger.
thanks, Jimn~
** edit ** i have this document now (see picture..) that shows how the thermistor varies resistance with temperature.... what I need is a table of how the output voltages on pin31 of the ECU (from this sensor) maps temperature to voltage values - because these I can feed direct to the datalogger.
thanks again :)
Temperature logging
before I change my Q4 to an FMIC (of appropriate design of course :) ) I'd like to measure the intake air temp so that I can compare the data between that of the current intercooler and that of the new.
Does anybody have a datasheet for the standard installed air temp sensor (its in the intake manifold) or know its manufacturer name and part number. I need the info to make sense of the temp info for the datalogger. This way I can use the current one rather than installing a 2nd one (like I have for the map sensor) just to send data to the logger.
thanks, Jimn~
** edit ** i have this document now (see picture..) that shows how the thermistor varies resistance with temperature.... what I need is a table of how the output voltages on pin31 of the ECU (from this sensor) maps temperature to voltage values - because these I can feed direct to the datalogger.
thanks again :)
The info gathered will be a bit short really Jim, you also need to log ambient temp (which is easy) and the temp at the exit of the turbo.
It then goes like this:
Ambient: 20'c
Temp at exit of turbo: 120'c
Therefore, total temp rise: 100'c
Temp after intercooler: 50'c
Now you have a figure which labels this intercooler as 50% efficient as it cuts the temp from 100 to 50. This you can then use to compare with other people and other intercoolers quite accurately. You have to do it this way because the ambient and turbo exit temp will be different from one car to another.
OK you want facts. There are a few q4's here over 300hp. Some of them even more. Which one of them runs the stock intercooler :)
http://www.redline.lt/magazine/featured-cars/article/article/12/1/
http://www.redline.lt/magazine/uploads/pics/alfa155_1.jpg
this is the only one that comes to my mind, and guess what - 1st it runs a grale cooler, next it is running without one of the hallos, and very possibly with a modified duct. I still believe the cheap ebay FMIC is the easiest and best IC for high boost without modifying the front bumper
On that pic up there - the 4 wholes, next to the halo is the place that the stock IC gets its air ;)
I am sorry, but this contains not very much in the way of hard fact, I could ring up Redline now and tell them I have a 500bhp monster and they would picture it and publish everything I tell them. They didn't do any testing on it.
I get a magazine overhere which features cars like this, when the owner rolls up they strap on some testing equipment and take it round the same test track before publishing the results, some people are dissapointed.....
I am sorry, but this contains not very much in the way of hard fact, I could ring up Redline now and tell them I have a 500bhp monster and they would picture it and publish everything I tell them. They didn't do any testing on it.
I get a magazine overhere which features cars like this, when the owner rolls up they strap on some testing equipment and take it round the same test track before publishing the results, some people are dissapointed.....
And the point of that post was ????
I mentioned that car as the ONLY ONE I've seen doing over 300hp and using the stock IC location (note, location, not stock IC, as was the main topic of the discussion)
BTW, has anyone info about the Q4's that were running in BTCC ? Maybe they were using the stock cooler/location too ? What boost/power where they using ?
Maybe they could be the prove that the stock IC location is not that bad :)
Evodelta, don't get me wrong, I totally respect your position, and you're right that the only way to be sure about which is better is to do some real tests. As I have neither a dyno, or time to do all the testing and intercooler replacements I assume the following:
Question: How many cars, running FMIC proved to be over 300whp have I seen.
Answer: A lot :) At least 6-7 here around me. One of them, my own Q4.
Question: How many Q4s in the 300WHP Have I seen running FMIC
Anser: A few. Again, my own is one of them :)
Question: How many Q4s have I seen with 300WHP running the stock intercooler ? None. Stock location ? Just one :)
Assumption: Without conditions to do some really precise and expensive test - go the FMIC way, as it is proven :)
I am not saying (and never did) that you should go one way or the other, ('Many roads lead to Rome') I am just pointing out the facts to all of you guys so that you can make an informed decision as to which way you should go. It is true that some compromise must be met for some and you have to make up your own minds where to compromise, in fact, if at all.
All I can do is to impart some knowledge of mine and get you all thinking, sometimes if you push some people they will come back with theory and pics in defence that they wouldn't have done normally so it adds to the discussion and helps us all see what is good and what is not.
Please don't take my posts any other way than this.
Right now I am pushing you a little bit because I want you to throw more and more of yours and others knowledge, pics, experience back to help this disscussion, I cannot debate for long on my own so react in the correct way and do not run away crying. Sit down and have a beer: :cheers:
:smile:
Sorry for the diversion, I hope you understand how I operate, now back to the job in hand:
Your current project is very ambitious and exciting and I am surprised you are going on 'assumptions'. I disagree that testing is expensive, it isn't. Time consuming? Yes a little, but the extended knowledge and a more reliable, economical and powerful motor are more than worth it in the end. You do not need a dyno.
I have in the past done projects on my car which I had bad feeling about, I proved myself correct! But I still did them and at least I now have the proof and the reasoning as to why it went wrong and of course, more knowledge.
BTW, has anyone info about the Q4's that were running in BTCC ? Maybe they were using the stock cooler/location too ? What boost/power where they using ?
BTCC cars were normally aspirated and front wheel drive :smile:
From memory the 4wd GTAs featured in 1992 DTM and ITCC.
wrinx
http://www.berlinasportivo.com/marquespec/Alfa/Q4register/zillinger.php
Some good features on this car.
:smile:
BTCC cars were normally aspirated and front wheel drive :smile:
From memory the 4wd GTAs featured in 1992 DTM and ITCC.
wrinx
Fine 10x :), and do we have info about them ? At least the aspects that are on topic - pressure, power and intercooling ?
Testing
I got some temp probes and went testing, I tested the standard integrale intercooler on a race track, for the first lap it was ok, then it started to rise and rise, by about lap 3 or 4 the intake charge was reading 65'c, it never got much higher. The ambient temp on the day was about 15'c and the turbo exit temps were about 110.
This told me that for a road car it was ok, as you are not usually able to drive your car for 6 - 8 miles flat out! It was no good for my track car though.
On the road you can usually use full boost in smaller short bursts, in between these the intercooler can be cooled down so it copes well. There is a delayed action with an intercooler, it cools down the charge air and then transfers that heat to the outer of the core where hopefully it is cooled by the moving air. This process isn't instant, it takes a few seconds or minutes, this is why a small cooler on a standard road car is ok. This is also why when you have a manually operated intercooler water spray fitted you have absolutely no idea of when to operate it...
I then decided to design a new 'cooler, the tubes are only 7.5" long, the core is 28 x 3" it is rated at flowing enough air without any restriction up to around 500bhp, it does work below this figure quite well and will work above it, it just tends to start and be restrictive at this stage, but will still work of course.
There is a right way and a wrong way to modify a car, some turn up the boost or fit a bigger turbo and simply force the air through an unmodified (or badly modified) engine and ancillaries, ok, so you get a power increase, it is also awkward to drive and you don't have the power which you would have if you had designed the whole lot correctly.
Modify everything which carries air so it carries more air and you will succeed in every department.
After doing the calculations I made a wooden box the size of the proposed 'cooler, I had a fair bit of re-arranging to do to get it to fit, but got it in eventually:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/Deltona_II/Charge%20air%20cooling/DSC02013.jpg
I was taking a risk, 7.5" of tube, would that really cool the air??? Only one way to find out...
It is very rare to see this type of intercooler fitted, they are labelled as 'downflow coolers' and are only used on very serious projects and mainly in the US, I got a shot of one on a turbocharged Viper at a drag strip near me, it was running about 1000hp:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/Deltona_II/Charge%20air%20cooling/DSC01989.jpg
I thought mine would be the only one on an integrale, then when I had it made I spotted another:
YouTube - Delta Integrale 982 bhp drag car Greece-Greg
Well, at least I had got mine behind the bumper and not nailed to the front of the car.....:rolleyes:
All made and fitted it looked like this:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/Deltona_II/Charge%20air%20cooling/DSC00295.jpg
I think they look ugly compared to side flow, maybe this is why they are unpopular.
The re-mapping went well, over 360bhp, no-one had ever had this much power from a standard 16v turbo before. The dyno operator said intake temps maxed at 50'c, this was good as there is little airflow on the rolling road and what there is is warm.
On the track I don't see anymore than 35'c on a warmish 20'c day, all day long.
Here is a test of the OE cooler in a road car flat out for about 1/2 a mile:
YouTube - integrale OE intercooler test
Please read the info with the clip.
You need to do the sums I pointed out to Jim a few posts back using Ambient 7, turbo exit 90 and manifold intake of 37. As mentioned earlier it does cool the air well in these short burst circumstances, it is also restrictive though, so I am trading cool air for strangling the engine a bit. Note how the temp behind the cooler is similar to the charge air coming out of it, this proves again that it is working well
Here is a test of the new FMIC fitted to my track car:
YouTube - 360bhp integrale intercooler test (FMIC)
DIY
What about making your own intercooler?
Truck intercoolers are great for this, get one cheap from a truck breakers yard. If you know what shape of end tank you need you may well find the correct one, you can cut down the end tanks and the cores to make one to fit your requirements, a quick Google brought up these pictures:
http://www.rcaradiadores.com.br/listar_produtos.php?segmento=2&categoria=51&pgi=0&pgf=10
Alternatively there are companies who will sell you just a core and the end tanks you need off the shelf, just weld them together....
Is that everything? We have covered rough sizing, ducting, how I did it, DIY....
A few more things to round it off:
Pipework
If going for more power it stands to reason you need bigger pipes to carry the air, at around 300bhp 65 - 70mm will do, at around 400bhp 75 is needed.
Try to make as fewer bends as possible and any bends you do have need to be graceful, tight bends are to be avoided if possible as they drop the velocity.
Air flow
We covered airflow to the cooler earlier and I mentioned you needed positive air pressure in front of the 'cooler and negative behind, what this means is that while the cooling air is being pushed in at the front it needs somewhere to go when it comes out of the other side, this is where you need to create a negative pressure zone...
Take a look at the white board under the front of the front bumper here: http://www.berlinasportivo.com/marquespec/Alfa/Q4register/zillinger/zillingerundfrnt.jpg
What happens is the air travels along the underside of this board, when it leaves the rear edge it creates a low pressure zone above it, it's kind of like a vacuum, this means that the air which has gone through the 'cooler is pulled through and away out under the car.
If you don't have pos/neg pressure either side of the 'cooler it will not work very well. I explained earlier how to test it.
Earlier the question of blocking the radiator with the 'cooler was raised, it is a good point and yes it will effect it, ways to help:
Fit a more efficient rad...
Make sure the IC is almost right against the rad, block the gap between the two with a rubber seal, this ensures the air will flow from one to another without stalling inbetween the two.
If you can duct the IC then do so, it is important and helps ram the air straight through it and the rad behind it.
Improve the neg' pressure zone behind the rad to get the air away and draw more cool air in.
Phew! Any questions? :biggrin:
Excellent stuff, thanks for the write up, have just read it start to finish.
Seriously considering an upgrade like Sami's: http://www.halme.fi/Q4/data/intercoolers.jpg
Which temp probes do you use on your 'grale?
I heard they are at risk of breaking up and being sucked through the entire inlet, or those being mounted before the turbo in the exhaust manifold go through the turbo damaging it.
Another question. What about where the air comes from?
Do you recommend re-locating the air filter or having a big cone filter over that of the standard air box and panel filter? Will it help much?
I presume not so much, the temperature of anything being spun and pressurised through the turbo will be raised massively anyway.
Standard airbox:
http://www.cloverleaf4.co.uk/images/uploads/12324.jpg
Excellent stuff, thanks for the write up, have just read it start to finish.
Seriously considering an upgrade like Sami's: http://www.halme.fi/Q4/data/intercoolers.jpg
Which temp probes do you use on your 'grale?
I heard they are at risk of breaking up and being sucked through the entire inlet, or those being mounted before the turbo in the exhaust manifold go through the turbo damaging it.
I gave my opinion on that cooler earlier, it looks ok to me.
The temp probes and display can be bought here:
http://www.t-uk.co.uk/docs/icc400.pdf
There is no danger of them breaking up in the inlet pipe if you fix them in place properly. You cannot fix these in the turbo manifold, you need specific EGT probes.
Seriously considering an upgrade like Sami's: http://www.halme.fi/Q4/data/intercoolers.jpg
I'm thinking the same Jack, either an off the shelf model which is near enough or a custom job...but where to go? :confused:
Perhaps an order of two would drop the price a touch? :cool::tasty:
wrinx
Another question. What about where the air comes from?
Do you recommend re-locating the air filter or having a big cone filter over that of the standard air box and panel filter? Will it help much?
I presume not so much, the temperature of anything being spun and pressurised through the turbo will be raised massively anyway.
Standard airbox:
http://www.cloverleaf4.co.uk/images/uploads/12324.jpg
Yes, cool air supply is important, how do you know you are getting it? Testing testing....
A cone filter has advantages over the OE one only if:
It has a bigger surface area.
The paper filter is dirty.
Quite often an extra hole in the OE airbox can help get more air in. Cone filters are noisy and don't filter the air quite as well as paper, they can also suck in warm air from the engine (unless they are partitioned off) where the OE box has a pipe pointing to the front of the car.
Great info Evodelta, thanks.
Am I correct that IC as attached below is of poor design since the will be no "turbulence" for the air to exchange the heat?
M.
Yes I would say that is correct, it does depend on the tube length to some degree, the longer they are the more you will lose some heat, but it is not a great design for air cooling, a liquid cooler maybe?
What is it or what is it from? Anymore details or pics?
Juan AR155Q4
05-10-08, 17:11
Great post EVODELTA!!!
And is good to have different opinions on the same subject.
What is it or what is it from? Anymore details or pics?
It says "made in Taiwan". Fitted it to a Q4, but the pipes/tubes are not done yet. But now after reading info in this topic thinking of getting another IC and get rid of this one :(
The size is:
length 520 mm (20.5")
width 214 mm (8.4") (without thouse brackets on top and bottom)
thickness 60 mm (2.36")
outlet diameter 64mm (2.5")
Thanks for this topic and the "chargecooling" one evodelta, will keep reading. :cheers:
It says "made in Taiwan". Fitted it to a Q4, but the pipes/tubes are not done yet. But now after reading info in this topic thinking of getting another IC and get rid of this one :(
The size is:
length 520 mm (20.5")
width 214 mm (8.4") (without thouse brackets on top and bottom)
thickness 60 mm (2.36")
outlet diameter 64mm (2.5")
No it doesn't look so good, only some testing will prove everything, but the theory points at it being a bit restrictive and not cooling the air so well. I think if you measured how much blank space you have inside compared with the tube openings and did a calculation you could work out a percentage or ratio and compare it with your original 'cooler.
Some people will just never get it:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/Deltona_II/Charge%20air%20cooling/IjustgottagetmeanFMIC.jpg
:eek::cry::doh::biggrin:
Ok i talked to wolf66(a member of this forum with highy tuned Q4..500bhp) and we talked about FMIC versus higher IC in original place...
He tested the original IC(reinforced but same core) on the original place at 2 bar boost and the temp kept going over 80 degrees when he pushed the throttle then he tested 2 original Q4 IC front mounted and it never went over 40 degrees...so it look like that j1v has a point and that one is theory and the other is practise.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/Deltona_II/Charge%20air%20cooling/IjustgottagetmeanFMIC.jpg
:)
It never ends. On almost every forum, there is a topic once in a while about "how much horse power gain from an IC on a N/A car" :biggrin:
Ok i talked to wolf66(a member of this forum with highy tuned Q4..500bhp) and we talked about FMIC versus higher IC in original place...
He tested the original IC(reinforced but same core) on the original place at 2 bar boost and the temp kept going over 80 degrees when he pushed the throttle then he tested 2 original Q4 IC front mounted and it never went over 40 degrees...so it look like that j1v has a point and that one is theory and the other is practise.
Glad to hear that. As I had never the time (and even the will) to make those tests, I was quite worried about being a dump ass talking without a prove :)
But cars are cars, no matter if it's a q4 or whatever (audis for example have similar IC location), and on almost every highly tuned and high boost car people prefer the FMIC.
Ok i talked to wolf66(a member of this forum with highy tuned Q4..500bhp) and we talked about FMIC versus higher IC in original place...
He tested the original IC(reinforced but same core) on the original place at 2 bar boost and the temp kept going over 80 degrees when he pushed the throttle then he tested 2 original Q4 IC front mounted and it never went over 40 degrees...so it look like that j1v has a point and that one is theory and the other is practise.
2? Together? Yes, that figures.
If the first drops the temp from say 120 to 80, then the second drops from 80 to 40.
You've still got two restrictive 'coolers though and now twice the pressure drop....
cuore_sportivo_155
07-10-08, 18:12
he forgot his turbo aswell....
Juan AR155Q4
07-10-08, 20:45
I think there is a misunderstanding.
What EVODELTA says is that a better way of doing it. If we put something better than OEM, surely is going to result in a lower temperature, but not lowest. Surely Wolf could have had a few extra HP if he had used a more efficient IC (FMIC, WC, SMIC, TMIC, or whatever).
This doesn?t mean he has done a bad job, but again, not the best ever.
Let?s keep all discussing this issue in a good manner as I think we?re all learning.
I bought this one:
http://i3.ebayimg.com/08/i/001/10/79/5637_1.JPG it was cheap and i bought it mainly becouse the original one wont hold more then 1.3-1.4 bar and to see if it is any good.
Core size:
lenght:28cm
height:30cm
thickness:8cm
I will report eventualy if i will able to squeeze it there :)
Axa, what are the internal diameter sizes of the pipe connections?
7cm is the outside (so it was written) ...i will write the exact diameter when i get it home from italy.
Now that looks promising...
wrinx
cuore_sportivo_155
08-10-08, 22:11
http://s1.promotionsupplies.com/ebay/just-intercoolers4/images/intercoolers/au-ic0005_23x11x3_v3.jpg
i think this one would fit a 156 2.4jtd aswell, in front of the rad and behind the bumper, the pipes are facing the perfect way aswell....
Just read the whole thread again....very :cool:
Axa...any news on your intercooler? I'm am almost certain I'll go for a custom version like Sammi's, really like that one. But the one you bought is second choice...and much cheaper!!! :)
wrinx
Well, if these prices are anything to go by....looking at about ?400 for a custom build!!!
http://www.getbadass.com/intercoolers.htm
wrinx
Keerrrrist!!!!!
http://zevo.se/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/intercooler.jpg
26x12x4
wrinx
Keerrrrist!!!!!
http://zevo.se/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/intercooler.jpg
26x12x4
wrinx
Sick....
:eek: :D
I've emailed Sammi but no reply, is he a member here...anyone have an email address for him?
I've decided I want one like his :cool:
http://www.halme.fi/Q4/data/intercoolers.jpg
wrinx
cuore_sportivo_155
24-11-08, 07:08
Keerrrrist!!!!!
http://zevo.se/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/intercooler.jpg
26x12x4
wrinx
you're looking good these days, wrinx... too bad you didn't have the dogs in the pic aswell ;)
The dogs are inside the intercooler... :eek:
wrinx
cuore_sportivo_155
24-11-08, 18:42
I could believe it...
Sami is not a member here, I think.
I had the same kind of intercooler also in my Q4. the intercooler is made here :
www.amworks.com
it was custom build and costs a lot ( around 400e )
I measured with that cooler 325hp .
the place however dont make just intercoolers anymore, they wanna build the hole car ...
but theres these good aluminium plenums you can get
http://www.amworks.com/pictures/WRCweb2.jpg
on my coupe ( fiat ) I?m gonna use different cooler
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Buick-Grand-National-Nissan-Supra-600-HP-Intercooler_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q 7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZ p3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem110317076942QQitemZ1103 17076942QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccess ories
good shape and flows well.
also remember to make good guides to that cooler, so the air, that gomes on the cooler have to go through there.
on my coupe ( fiat ) I?m gonna use different cooler
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Buick-Grand-National-Nissan-Supra-600-HP-Intercooler_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q 7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZ p3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem110317076942QQitemZ1103 17076942QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccess ories
good shape and flows well.
also remember to make good guides to that cooler, so the air, that gomes on the cooler have to go through there.
I don't think 400e is a lot to pay for a custom intercooler, not if the workmanship is good, you cannot compare it against some of the Chinese rubbish that is on the market. Not all is like this of course.
I like this 'cooler you are looking at, it ticks all the boxes, but there is one thing that stands out as being bad (and has put me off buying one for some time) and that is the listed temp drop: 28% is no good. If your turbo temp is 100' then it will only drop to 72' (is this maths correct?).
I'm thinking if this is true then the core must be complete rubbish, or someone has got their figures wrong. After all the seller knows nothing at all about intercoolers, he simply buys in his stuff from China and sells it on Ebay, the same one has been on sale here in the UK for years now.
If you bought one I would very interested to see what the core looks like inside and how it did perform, remember as I said earlier if you are testing you need 3 temps: Before intercooler, after intercooler and outside temp.
Sami is not a member here, I think.
That's a shame...
I had the same kind of intercooler also in my Q4.
Ohh...good, don't suppose yo have the dimensions or a drawing available, just to save me messing about?
wrinx
Very interesting thread indeed with so much to learn from. Really good job.
At first I intented to mount the FMIC inclined (lower base backwards a few inches due to the front bumper configuration) but now I got cooled down...
I already f....d up one front bumper :doh: trying to find a suitable place for a bigger FMIC wich I have and still remains another front bumper to sacrifice.
I'll post some pictures if will have the job done succesfully (or anyway it ends) but first I'd like to ask if when a bigger IC (stock IC +60%) is mounted:
1) It is imperative to have a bigger turbocharger too ?
2) Are there any consequences to the stall prevention valve operating?
If I might seem a begginer here I can assure you that is a fact .:tongue2:
Greatings.
Cristian
arjunior45
12-06-09, 11:42
I'm very skeptic of the FMIC, for many reasons.
One of the is the 'free' space of 2,5 - 3 cm that the FMIC should have from the AC condenser's surface! If you don't take care of that you'll end up with a configuration like this! See picture.
And in any case you will have a IC blocking the fresh air for the A/C condenser and the water radiator! That means higher water temperatures!!!
Why don't you consider a 47% bigger IC at the oem position? You could easily combine that with a 'water injection' system and if you want to be 'extreme' you could use an electric fan too, just behind the IC.
see :
http://forum.berlinasportivo.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=825&d=1239091421
http://forum.berlinasportivo.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=824&d=1239091421
Thanks for your suggestions, Nick. I certainly will take it in consideration when looking for the best options.
I must say I intend to mount the bigger IC in front of the "crossmember" (if I'm correct) by cutting from the front bumper and a bit from my fingers...and not under it. As far I found that not an easy job to do but if I decide to mount that IC in front I'll manage it somehow.
You are perfectly right on the reducing fresh air for A/C condenser & radiator and this one would be the first dissadvantage I've been thinking at but at the same time the OEM IC has also a big dissadvantage of positioning. Hmmm...
Any suggestions are very much appreciated, thank you.
Cheers.
Cristian
arjunior45
12-06-09, 15:21
the OEM IC has also a big dissadvantage of positioning. Hmmm...
Cristian
what do you mean by 'positioning'? I can not understand.
what do you mean by 'positioning'? I can not understand.
It's placed on a very wrong location.
The air flow is blocked by many things. Not very efficient...
Yes, that's what I meant.
arjunior45
12-06-09, 17:28
It's placed on a very wrong location.
The air flow is blocked by many things. Not very efficient...
Yes, the air flow is blocked but you could remove the fog lamp and modify the air duck, for a start. I did that, but can not say much for the air temperature levels, as I never measured them at all.
What do you think of using an el. fan too behind the IC combined with the 'water injection' system too? It's my next project btw. Then I could try to measure the 'intake' air temperatures probably.
I you have stock engine and power so I would suggest to leave the OEM system.
If not - one of the first thing I would do is to remove airconditioning system and put FMIC......
But of course you have to know what your car is goiing to be used for ....
One more thing to know is that the flow through stock bumper is very poor. When I had a Q4 with a stock bumper and AC radiator, I had a chance to monitor the speed when the fan starts turning from the air flow through the bumper (I know this 'measurement' is not perfect, but gives an overall idea).
In a OEM system (with stock bumper and AC mounted) the radiator fan starts to spin from the air flow only after speed exceeds approx. 120 km/h.
After I removed licence plate and opened stock holes behind licence plate, the fan started turning from aroun 90-100 km/h (with AC radiator and FMIC mounted)
When I removed front bumper at all, the fan start spining from around 60 km/h (with AC radiator and FMIC...)
This should help to get an idea how poor the airflow through stock bumper with a AC mounted is... However I believe it is just what this car needs if it is a daily driver and not a performance beast :)
Cheers
arjunior45
12-06-09, 20:55
In a OEM system (with stock bumper and AC mounted) the radiator fan starts to spin from the air flow only after speed exceeds approx. 120 km/h.
After I removed licence plate and opened stock holes behind licence plate, the fan started turning from aroun 90-100 km/h (with AC radiator and FMIC mounted)
Cheers
you have not monitor the speed with just the oem configuration and the holes behind license plate {with AC radiator but without a FMIC}, have you?
Just for curiosity.
you have not monitor the speed with just the oem configuration and the holes behind license plate {with AC radiator but without a FMIC}, have you?
Just for curiosity.
nope...
arjunior45
14-06-09, 20:38
nope...
shame on you. Now how can I have that very very very crucial info?
I saw these:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120555216122
Toyota mr2 intercooler.
240*195*100 connections are 2.5 inch.
Advertised for ?59.99. And I saw them even cheaper.
Looks like a good deal. It probably will handle boost better than the stock one, and might fit in the original location. :confused:
http://i39.tinypic.com/23lcy0z.jpg
Flow is almost 50% above stock one.
If that fits then it's a good find. :smile:
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