View Full Version : Worn lobes on exhaust cam
The engine has a 100K miles on it, what would have caused this?
http://www.cloverleaf4.co.uk/images/uploads/11839.jpg
http://www.cloverleaf4.co.uk/images/uploads/11840.jpg
No. 5 looks suspect also:
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http://www.cloverleaf4.co.uk/images/uploads/11842.jpg
I think I may have a spare in the shed but will need to check.
Will I be down on a lot of power?
It's a common problem with this engine and different people have different therories:
1. Not changing the oil often enough (not neccessarily you, but previous owners)
2. Badly set tappet clearances.
3. The turbo manifold runs close to the head here and the heat from it cooks the oil.
4. Later cams for these engines being made from bad material. Many specialists will not even fit a cam from Fiat believing this to be the problem.
5. A combination of all of the above.
Yes, you will of course be down on power, the exhaust valve(s) are not opening enough.
The worn cam is not the only problem, now you have to worry where all the metal went....
Thanks, I will swap them out when I check for a spare in the shed.
now you have to worry where all the metal went....
Yes this has been on my mind. Basically its going to be everywhere, I will change the oil now and again in a couple of thousand miles.
Would you recommend an engine flush?
If you changed your oil filter regularly then it may be ok, consider the flow of oil: It goes from the head down to the sump, then up the pick up, round the pump and through the filter before going further.
To flush just use some of the cheapest crappest oil you can find and use it for a short time before changing it and the filter too. The filter is the most important as that is where most of the swarf will be.
Never a quiet moment with an old Italian car eh? And if there is it's because something is brewing....
Been there, done that.
C&B cams for me.
Good luk.
It is an easy jobb.
I heard that Fiat tipo 3dor inlet cam vill do a god jobb as eksaus cam on the Q4?????
Cheers.
Its an easy job to swap them but re-shimming I am not so sure how to do myself. My dad did it on the car I re-built when I was not there and the head was off the block.
Do I need to take the cams out each time to try different sizes? I have 16 from a different head. A quick guide would be appreciated if you could.
Nope, never a quiet moment, I only took the cover off to paint it :doh::doh::doh:
@TM, I have thought about doing the Tipo conversion (I thought it was a 5 door version) but I think I would need a re-map and I am looking for a quick solid fix for now.:redface:
There was a thread on here just a few weeks ago started by young Master Wrinks, tie that in with the w'shop manual and you will learn lots. If you don't have a tappet bucket depressing tool then you will have to do it by taking the cams out. Some accurate measuring equipment (feelers) a basic grasp of maths, a bit of patience, a soup??on of diligence and you will be ok.
tappet bucket depressing tool
Sounds good as I would rather leave it in whist I adjust it. Il get on to the workshop manual in my lunch break :cheers:
I just had same problem with an Alfa 147, but it was twink 1.6!!! isn't case hardening great???
lack of oil changes was to blame in this instance!! A previous owner had not had it changed for a year or so and racked up loads of mile's!!
Sounds good as I would rather leave it in whist I adjust it. Il get on to the workshop manual in my lunch break :cheers:
These tools may be available from Guy Croft.
Also useful is a tiny flatbladed screwdriver to flip the shims out and a magnet-on-a-retractable-1980s-car aerial* type thingy to retrieve them.
*Hopefully you know the kind of thing I mean.
They are available from GC, for about ?50+vat+delivery...I posted about them in the cam thread I think.
Not got around to getting any yet...but I might try and manage without due to the price!
wrinx
Iv got the magnetic aerial thing already, invaluable with the amount of stuff I loose down the back of engine bays! :D
Will contact GC..
You'll have to go halves with Wrinkypoos maybe. A turkey baster is a good cheap tool aswell for lifting the oil out of the head before you operate.
You'll have to go halves with Wrinkypoos maybe. A turkey baster is a good cheap tool aswell for lifting the oil out of the head before you operate.
Il use my brake bleed vacuum thing.
I was thinking about asking Wrinx if he wanted to go halves. But I will check to see if anyone is renting them for much cheapness on FCCUK first :smile:
I searched there and couldn't find reference to even checking the clearances!
Perhaps it was just my search though...
wrinx
Right, have had a quick measure up...in inches as I didn't find the mm feeler until after :doh:
So after conversion the inlet is all at 0.31
The exhaust is ranging from 0.36 to 0.41
I think these are a bit meaningless though as I really need to redo it properly with the correct feeler gauge. Then again, why bother, they are being swapped!
The manual states the range should be (cold engine):
Inlet: 0.36 - 0.44
Exhaust: 0.46 - 0.54
On the plus side my spare cams look good and healthy :cool:
So they are all too tight...
wrinx
Yes, but I would need more accurate readings with the mm feelers to be sure. As I am swapping the cams I will see what that brings.
Bloodyhell, wish I had never discovered it (short term view). ?40 for 6 shims to be delivered!
Ouch! I need some shims for the inlet so perhaps some of yours (if they're ok) will be of use to me...to help reduce the cost :smile:
wrinx
@TM, I have thought about doing the Tipo conversion (I thought it was a 5 door version) but I think I would need a re-map and I am looking for a quick solid fix for now.
OOOOOOOOOOOPS !!!!!!
Do`t listen too me.
I do`t remember.
Sorry!!!!!
arjunior45
12-09-08, 08:51
Ouch! I need some shims for the inlet so perhaps some of yours (if they're ok) will be of use to me...to help reduce the cost :smile:
wrinx
sorry wrinx, do not have any. And I do not know how much they cost here in Greece.
Nick
No problem, quite happy to buy new but thought I might be able to help Jack out :smile:
wrinx
arjunior45
12-09-08, 09:30
some day I must check my valve's clearance too as its quite some time they've started to 'make their noise'. Hope to mount the Tipo cam too at that time.
BTW it's the 5 door Tipo's cam, but to be sure you must measure the lift of them. It should be 10,115mm.
Nick
Might be able to help you out Wrinx, just let me know the numbers.
For the Tipo cam you need to cut the off centre slot for the cam phase sensor on the exhaust side..
Slightly off topic but how acceptable do you think it is to charge ?7.50+VAT post and packing and then send 6 shims in an envelope with a stamp it was for I think ?1.56 :rolleyes:
cuore_sportivo_155
12-09-08, 18:30
are you sure all 6 arrived? seems like the envelope could rip quite easy and a couple or all shims got lost in the mail..
that being said, you pay for shipping and handling, which means some time an petrol out for going to the post-office...
ask for an invoice so you know he payed mr brown what he's due and not added it to his beemer fund..
Slightly off topic but how acceptable do you think it is to charge ?7.50+VAT post and packing and then send 6 shims in an envelope with a stamp it was for I think ?1.56 :rolleyes:
Personally I think that stinks big time, I hate being ripped off for "packing" and the other "add-ons" people like to use to bump the price up. It must have taken them all of five minutes to write your name on the envelope and stick it in the out-going post tray! I could understand a couple of quid to cover time and any packing materials but a jiffy bag is less than a quid!
Ebay is a bad place for this kind of stuff too....who was the company?
wrinx
Whalley Integrale. I guess this is the price you pay for wanting that is in stock. Mangos would have ordered them in and charged the Royal Mail price but I wouldnt of had them until Tues or Wed next week.
Nah, doubt it, bet they would charge the same even if they'd ordered the parts, probably just their usual charge for post :(
wrinx
The manual states the range should be (cold engine):
Inlet: 0.36 - 0.44
Exhaust: 0.46 - 0.54
On the plus side my spare cams look good and healthy :cool:
Finally got around to looking at my cams...inlet clearances are in the region 0.58-0.61!!!!!!!
No wonder it was a little rattly...thankfully not many miles done in this state and the cams look fine :oops:
wrinx
Let me know what shims you need..might be able to help :)
Thanks...looks like several needed around the 4.25 area...there's a guy on fleabay selling them quite cheaply if you haven't got any/enough :)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140312046681
wrinx
If your list hasn't changed I don't think you'll have what I'm after...sadly :(
If you need shims, I have:
3.90 x1
3.95 x2
3.97 x2
4.00 x3
4.02 x1
4.07 x1
4.05 x2
4.10 x2
4.12 x2
wrinx
If I posted that after I swapped my cams (most likely) then I don't think that the list has changed :(
EDIT: Just found the thread from 2007 - I will probably have a different set now. I can get you an updated list but won't be until Thursday...
That's fine....don't break your neck though, at ?3-ish apiece they're not going to break the bank :D
...unless I need ALL of them replacing :eek:
wrinx
How bloomin' much!!!!
I need the following...(dealer prices)
2x 4.10 @ ?14.35 each!!!
2x 4.20 @ ?14.35 each!!!
4x 4.25 @ ?6.34 each.
Grand total of ?82.76.
wrinx
Just going to call my dad to see if he can find out what I have..
That is expensive - and I reckon that is plus VAT + P&P!
If I have got any to fit, you can have them and we can swap back if need be in the future.
That's great Jack, you're a star!
Price is including VAT but no postage as the dealer is local. Even with my 10% Club discount it's a lot of money!
I can get six of them from the guy in the link above, for ?3.40 each, but the other two will still cost ?28.70 which I think is just daft for a little bit of metal!
Here's hoping you've got the 4.10s :D
wrinx
Try phoning Keith at Auto Integrale - I got some from him for waaaay less that what you guys are quoting! He'll usually want your old ones back, but there not much good to you sat on a shelf.
It's also worth speaking to a local engine engineering firm - they can probably get them, or in the past I've had some ground down for a few beer vouchers. I don't think they are case hardened, but you might want to check before pursuing this route.
Juan AR155Q4
25-08-09, 21:18
Wow!!
I?ll start exporting shims!!!
Here we can buy A$5 (?0.10) each.
arjunior45
26-08-09, 18:45
Wow!!
I?ll start exporting shims!!!
Here we can buy A$5 (?0.10) each.
that will be something great. Can you do that? I think some of the people here could take advantage of it.
At those prices I think a business venture is very tempting!
wrinx
Juan AR155Q4
27-08-09, 12:21
Sorry, I have mistakened with conversion.
A$5 (?1.00)
Still damned cheap!!!
wrinx
Excellent, the ebay chap has six of the shims I need and Jack has come through with the two he doesn't have in stock :D
Happy days...thanks Jack ;)
wrinx
Inlet shims all in now...and the gaps are still roughly the same, despite adding around 0.20 to each shim!!!!
E.g.
Clearance was 0.61
Clearance should be 0.40
Oversize by 0.21
Current shim 3.90
New shim size calculated as 3.90+0.21=4.11, therefore nearest shim is 4.10.
That particular lobe clearance now measures 0.63, so it needs another 0.23 adding :?
Fairly sure it's not my measuring as the exhaust clearances are still the same...hellllp :?
wrinx
Oh...and I'm going to need an exhaust cam soon as one lobe is about a millimetre smaller than the others :roll:
wrinx
Could it be that the shims I sent has thinned through wear?
Have you got a good accurate vernier gauge?
What a PITA it is turning out to be :(
Could it be that the shims I sent has thinned through wear?
Have you got a good accurate vernier gauge?
What a PITA it is turning out to be :(
Can't blame the shims you sent Jack, as they are all out by about the same...and the ones I bought are brand new.
wrinx
Just checked the ones you sent, slighty worn, perhaps by about 0.02mm...nowt to worry about :lol:
New (larger) shims ordered...so I have a small stock if anyone needs some shims :D :roll:
Jack, are you at Gaydon on Sunday, I'll bring your shims if I make it?
wrinx
I won't be at Gaydon...there is a section event on. Don't worry though, hold on to them for the time being :)
arjunior45
03-09-09, 09:36
following your posts I'm almost afraid to remove the cam cover and check my clearances.
Probably I must do it as I've already start to 'hear' a valve or two, when engine is cold. Aand definitively I must replace the cam cover flange as it's leaking all over the place, even in the 2nd cylinder spark plug place.
I hate to do this kind of job
Did you torque down the camshaft properly if you removed it to change the shims, or did you use the tool? (I could never get on with the tool and found it quicker to release the camshafts).
Didn't remove the cam, made my own tools :D
Yes, they are a bit fiddly, perhaps easier with the proper tools rather than my home made eforts but I managed it ok.
wrinx
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