View Full Version : Q4 gearbox
RMB-Racing
20-08-08, 12:57
Well - meanwhile when my engine is in the engineshop, I had to use the time to something else...
So why don't take the gearbox apart!
Here are some pics to digest.
Your brave, I wouldn't trust myself to get it right putting it back together, I recently took apart a 1.8 8v gear box - sooo many components!!
Any signs of excessive wear?
Are you going to put a strengthening plate in while you are at it?
Fletch mentioned the above mod, apparently there's a known weakness.
wrinx
RMB-Racing
20-08-08, 20:50
Are you going to put a strengthening plate in while you are at it?
I?m not quite sure I know what your talking about..?
With more power and some spirited driving the two main shafts can force themselves apart, this cracks the gearbox casing. The SS plate goes in between the two halves of the the casings on the gearbox, it is held in place with 5 solid dowels and a couple of extra bolts which go through the casings and the plate.
The Grp N rally cars used to use them and a couple of the UK dealers sell them for ?235.
I can get them for ?130 delivered to you if you are interested.
When you have the gearbox in parts I would recommend you to to change the 5:th gear for the long one from the Delta HPE HF - that is definitely one of top three modifications I've made. at 140 km/h you lower the engine speed by ~500 rpm.
By the way, it is easy to change the 5:th gear also with the gearbox in the car.
/A
When you have the gearbox in parts I would recommend you to to change the 5:th gear for the long one from the Delta HPE HF - that is definitely one of top three modifications I've made. at 140 km/h you lower the engine speed by ~500 rpm.
By the way, it is easy to change the 5:th gear also with the gearbox in the car.
/A
This sounds very interesting, I would like this mod in my car, can you explain it more? :D
With more power and some spirited driving the two main shafts can force themselves apart, this cracks the gearbox casing. The SS plate goes in between the two halves of the the casings on the gearbox, it is held in place with 5 solid dowels and a couple of extra bolts which go through the casings and the plate.
The Grp N rally cars used to use them and a couple of the UK dealers sell them for ?235.
I can get them for ?130 delivered to you if you are interested.
Is there a chance for more information -
1) how complex the installation is (any mods to the casings of the gearbox)
2) what torque or HP limit such a gearbox could handle (if such info is quoted somewhere)
Thanks
RMB-Racing
21-08-08, 15:39
Okay Evodelta - your talking about three mods...
1. Changing the fifth gear. Sounds like a great idea!
2. Change a plate..? Is it the one on the picture..?
3. What is the last mod..?
Juan ALZAGA
21-08-08, 17:35
With more power and some spirited driving the two main shafts can force themselves apart, this cracks the gearbox casing. The SS plate goes in between the two halves of the the casings on the gearbox, it is held in place with 5 solid dowels and a couple of extra bolts which go through the casings and the plate.
The Grp N rally cars used to use them and a couple of the UK dealers sell them for ?235.
I can get them for ?130 delivered to you if you are interested.
Hi! Where are you located? can it be paid via PAYPAL? Pls let me know, I'm interested. I'm from Buenos Aires, Argentina, but have some friends at London who can receive the parcel! Cheers.
No I'm talking about one mod and that is a gearbox strengthening plate, it goes where I said before (The two parts of the gearbox are at the top of your earlier pic on the right).
What you have just shown there is a spectacle plate.
You have to remove the thickness of the plate from the outer casing then bolt it back up again. Removal is by milling or surface grinding on a machine.
Here is what it looks like fitted:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/Deltona_II/Transmission/DSC01763.jpg
Whether you need one is down to the way you drive and the power, 350bhp and 300lbs/ft torque and you should consider it before it all ends in tears.
Also, take your differential out and check that the planetry gears are not moving about due to the stakings on the shafts working loose, not so common on the later boxes like yours, but on the early ones they made a real mess of things, see the groove they have caused here:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/Deltona_II/Transmission/DSC00601.jpg
And here:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/Deltona_II/Transmission/DSC00598.jpg
And the stakings coming loose here:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/Deltona_II/Transmission/DSC00597.jpg
Hi! Where are you located? can it be paid via PAYPAL? Pls let me know, I'm interested. I'm from Buenos Aires, Argentina, but have some friends at London who can receive the parcel! Cheers.
Yes no problem, PM me your email address and any questions you may have.
arjunior45
22-08-08, 05:51
@ Evodelta
great info. Should have known that quite long ago.
What did you do for the planetary gears?
@ #84#
so, you have an extra ? km for the top speed! And fuel economy in cruising speed!!!
Thanks to both of you for the info.
Nick
When you have the gearbox in parts I would recommend you to to change the 5:th gear for the long one from the Delta HPE HF - that is definitely one of top three modifications I've made. at 140 km/h you lower the engine speed by ~500 rpm.
By the way, it is easy to change the 5:th gear also with the gearbox in the car.
/A
That's cool, I never heard that one before. :tasty:
@ Evodelta
great info. Should have known that quite long ago.
What did you do for the planetary gears?
Thanks to both of you for the info.
Nick
If the gears have got this bad then it is a bit too far really for repair, but if you wanted to you could and get a few more miles from it.
Basically you push the pins back into place and make the stakings better (the staking is done not very well by a special punch in the factory which puts the star shape on the outside of the crown wheel).
Some people weld them in place, this is 100% secure, but you have to be aware that any work you need to do another day will be difficult or impossible without destroying the parts to get them loose. Also, use TIG weld and immerse the component 90% in water so as to cut down on the chance of warping due to the heat (TIG is a cooler weld).
Take note of what I said earlier in that this problem happens less to these later transmissions, in the pictures are 1990 integrale 8v components.
arjunior45
22-08-08, 10:15
ok Evodelta,
we always use TIG welding and I know what to do with this welder. As soon {hope later as possible} as I'll take apart the gearbox I'll go for the plate and the welding.
Thanks again.
Nick
Thanks for the info Evodelta.
Have onyone any info on the mods to the gearbox needed when you have well over 350bhp and 300lbs/ft torque (and the driveing style being quite "severe"). I've heard of a "cabon" casings (or something similar) but did not find any more info on that (if its real thing and where to get it ...).
About the 5:th gear:
The standard gear is calculated to result in a speed of 238 km/h @ 6500 rpm
The gew gear is calculated to result in a speed of 274 km/h @ 6500 rpm
At 140 km/h the difference is exactely 500 rpm with the same calculation.
My rev limiter is set to 7200 rpm ... = 303,5 km/h ..... :)
The part numbers are 774 51 53 and 608 11 731.
You just unscrew the end cover of the gearbox and you find the 5:th gear just in front of you. The gears are locked to the shafts by a nut (don't know the size) so unscrew the nut on each shaft, remove the gears and put in the new ones. No new gasket is needed since "silicon glue" is used from factory.
Happy New Gear
/A
arjunior45
24-08-08, 08:07
About the 5:th gear:
The standard gear is calculated to result in a speed of 238 km/h @ 6500 rpm
The gew gear is calculated to result in a speed of 274 km/h @ 6500 rpm
At 140 km/h the difference is exactely 500 rpm with the same calculation.
My rev limiter is set to 7200 rpm ... = 303,5 km/h ..... :)
The part numbers are 7757955 and 7757956.
You just unscrew the end cover of the gearbox and you find the 5:th gear just in front of you. The gears are locked to the shafts by a nut (don't know the size) so unscrew the nut on each shaft, remove the gears and put in the new ones. No new gasket is needed since "silicon glue" is used from factory.
Happy New Gear
/A
Great Andreas
Good information, thanks....I have noticed the revs are a bit high when cruising in to three figures :cool:
wrinx
If the Delta HPE gear fits then why not the Fiat Coupe, has anyone tried this? Remember the downside - you will spoil the acceleration in 5th gear and find yourself dropping down to 4th more often when you need to get serious....
I have a friend who is working on a carbon casing (he works in the transmissions dept of Honda F1 who use this concept) I don't think it will be ready for a while yet, but when tested and for sale I'll let you know. Scara does a replacement spectacle plate, but I don't know much about it. Sadly sometimes, you just have to break your transmission and then work out how to strengthen it as the high power guys rarely give info away.
Or drive more smoothly, as it is jerkyness which breaks things, get two wheels fighting for grip on the loose, foot to the boards, and as soon as they come back to the tarmac there is a lurch which will break something.
Some are probably looking at my GBSP and thinking they will make their own, think again. A lot of time, money and developement went into the first one, they are all CNC Laser cut and very precise and for the price you might aswell not bother...
RMB-Racing
24-08-08, 14:20
Now I have assembled the gearbox again!
I couldn't find any excessive wear, noting in particular anyway...
The housing has been painted, just for the look. :cool:
About the 5:th gear:
The standard gear is calculated to result in a speed of 238 km/h @ 6500 rpm
The gew gear is calculated to result in a speed of 274 km/h @ 6500 rpm
At 140 km/h the difference is exactely 500 rpm with the same calculation.
My rev limiter is set to 7200 rpm ... = 303,5 km/h ..... :)
The part numbers are 7757955 and 7757956.
You just unscrew the end cover of the gearbox and you find the 5:th gear just in front of you. The gears are locked to the shafts by a nut (don't know the size) so unscrew the nut on each shaft, remove the gears and put in the new ones. No new gasket is needed since "silicon glue" is used from factory.
Happy New Gear
/A
This sounds great, I am going to get in touch with my Alfa supplier tomorrow and see how much these gears are going to cost me.. :)
Which gear goes into what place? Would it be possible to provide pictures? :D
...
I have a friend who is working on a carbon casing (he works in the transmissions dept of Honda F1 who use this concept) I don't think it will be ready for a while yet, but when tested and for sale I'll let you know. Scara does a replacement spectacle plate, but I don't know much about it. Sadly sometimes, you just have to break your transmission and then work out how to strengthen it as the high power guys rarely give info away.
...
Thanks for info. Saw some interesting looking (dont know if it is only painted OEM one or thats a whole casing made up from different material ... and maybe a sequential gearbox, haven't seen such from inside...) Delta Evo gearbox on this site: http://www.zica.it/galerie.php?lan=eng&&m=galerie&&galid=18
Try to get more info when I'm up to that (hopefully soon) and let you know if anything interesting there. Sadly Evo casing is a bit diferent from Q4 for it is bolted to the body/subframe in different points so there would be more work to fit it.
Thanks for the link, I never saw this one. He has some nice straight cut gears I see, but I think it's just an OE casing painted, the end cap looks interesting - I can't tell what it is or why he has done it:
http://www.zica.it/galerie.php?lan=eng&&m=galerie&&pic=861&&galid=18
If you can find out more it would be great!
I don't think this is sequential, there is a guy in Andorra who races a 'grale with a sequential 'box - Colotti or Bacci (can't remember which) It was very expensive and took many hours to convert.
arjunior45
25-08-08, 06:56
Colotti always had great part and as far as I can tell he has the best {quite expensive but worth all the money} gearbox replacement for the old Alfa's {Bertone and 75}.
In a race 75turbo car we measured well over a second of gain in a 3,7Km hill climb. And there was no need to change the gearbox casing. As for the Bertone, they are 10000000% recommended for their "inesti frontali' gearbox. Kick a lot with that but engine rev as an electric motor and changing gears is much-much-much faster than the oem one and the Autodelta GTAm one.
Bacci Romano have great stuff too and I believe he is not that expensive as Colotti
Nick
About the Fiat Coupe 5:th gear: Same gear ratio as 155 Q4
About 5:th gear acceleration: Well, you can't have all. You will almost never ever use 5:th gear at the race track, so for that sake you won't need the lower 5:th gear ratio.
About pictures on my upgrade: Sorry I don't have any. When you remove front left wheel you see the gearbox and the M6 screws that should be removed. Then you replace the gears as follows:
32 -> 30 teeth
35 -> 37 teeth
/A
About the Fiat Coupe 5:th gear: Same gear ratio as 155 Q4
About 5:th gear acceleration: Well, you can't have all. You will almost never ever use 5:th gear at the race track, so for that sake you won't need the lower 5:th gear ratio.
About pictures on my upgrade: Sorry I don't have any. When you remove front left wheel you see the gearbox and the M6 screws that should be removed. Then you replace the gears as follows:
32 -> 31 teeth
35 -> 39 teeth
/A
This explanation should do it too.. :)
Thank you very much.. :)
So I ordered these two gears today, and the total cost will be around 1100,- dkr, approximately 150 euro, my supplier had to get one of them from Italy so they will be delivered sometime in the beginning of next week..
But no problem to order them though.. :)
Almost can't wait to have this mod installed!
RMB-Racing
26-08-08, 19:58
So I ordered these two gears today, and the total cost will be around 1100,- dkr, approximately 150 euro, my supplier had to get one of them from Italy so they will be delivered sometime in the beginning of next week..
But no problem to order them though.. :)
Almost can't wait to have this mod installed!
Lets hear about the result! :tongue2:
Lets hear about the result! :tongue2:
You sure will.. :)
Could you do a before and after rev check, perhaps at 75 and 100mph (120 and 160km/h) please?
Mine currently sits at something like 4200 for 100mph and gets a bit tiring on long runs, very interested in this and the difference it might make.
...and of course the top speed will be increased :smile:
wrinx
Could you do a before and after rev check, perhaps at 75 and 100mph (120 and 160km/h) please?
Yeah, I will do a rev check before and after..
Mine currently sits at something like 4200 for 100mph and gets a bit tiring on long runs, very interested in this and the difference it might make.
I have the exact same problem, and that is the reason for changing.. :)
RMB-Racing
31-08-08, 15:13
Now the paint job on the gearbox is finished.
Here is the result:
:cool: Looks better than new!
wrinx
Do the bolt heads black ;)
Do the bolt heads black ;)
That would be the ultimate finishing touch :cool:
Greetings,
Marc
Juan AR155Q4
15-09-08, 14:58
You just unscrew the end cover of the gearbox and you find the 5:th gear just in front of you. The gears are locked to the shafts by a nut (don't know the size) so unscrew the nut on each shaft, remove the gears and put in the new ones. No new gasket is needed since "silicon glue" is used from factory.
This are the 2 ones that must be changed?
(from a Delta but similar)
http://www.scara73.it/Trasmissione_Abarth/Cambio_2.jpg
I know it is a "old"post but i hope it is ok i post here instead of making a new thread.
Does anyone know place where you can get First 3 Gear.as grp N reinforced gears
Does anyone know place where you can get First 3 Gear.as grp N reinforced gears
First welcome to Berlina Sportivo :smoke:
Maybe you can introduce you Q4 in the member section on this forum?
Interesting question :smile:
Unfortunatly I don't know the anwser.
Greetings,
Marc
Welcome to the forum. Now is it actually the gears that break or the housing? If its the housing then EvoDelta might have something for you..
i have the strenght plate, and also a longer 5 gear. but it was more the 1,2,3 gear i woud lik to have upgraded
peter holst
04-11-08, 17:47
www.scare73.it
www.scara73.it
that works a little better
About the 5:th gear:
The standard gear is calculated to result in a speed of 238 km/h @ 6500 rpm
The gew gear is calculated to result in a speed of 274 km/h @ 6500 rpm
At 140 km/h the difference is exactely 500 rpm with the same calculation.
My rev limiter is set to 7200 rpm ... = 303,5 km/h ..... :)
The part numbers are 7757955 and 7757956.
You just unscrew the end cover of the gearbox and you find the 5:th gear just in front of you. The gears are locked to the shafts by a nut (don't know the size) so unscrew the nut on each shaft, remove the gears and put in the new ones. No new gasket is needed since "silicon glue" is used from factory.
Happy New Gear
/A
Sorry to start up in this thread again, but i have bought those two part number, and they do not fit in my gearbox, .. my shaft are thicker.
Perhaps this will help?
P/n - 7757955 (No. 16 in picture 1)
(FIAT) - 1D UNO MONDO (1995-....)
(FIAT) - NX PUNTO D-TD (1993-1997)
(FIAT) - 1B PUNTO TB.DS. GAMMA'97 (1997-1999)
(FIAT) - NT TIPO MAQ.93 D-TD (1993-1995)
(FIAT) - NJ TEMPRA MQ.93 D-TD (1993-1996)
(FIAT) - PU MAREA DIESEL (1996-1999)
(FIAT) - 2A SIENA EXTRA EUROPA (1997-2002)
(FIAT) - 2L SIENA EXTRA EUROPA REST.(2002-..)
(FIAT) - PY PALIO/WEEKEND EUROPA (1997-2002)
(FIAT) - 1Y PALIO WE EXTRA EUROPA (1997-2002)
(FIAT) - 2K PALIO WE. EXTRA EUROPA REST. 2002
(FIAT) - 1X PALIO 2V EXTRA EUROPA (1997-2002)
(FIAT) - 2H PALIO 2V EXTRA EUROPA REST. 2002
(LANCIA) - SQ N.DELTA TB/DS (1994-1999)
(LANCIA) - RZ DEDRA TURBO DIESEL (1989-1994)
(LANCIA) - SN DEDRA FL.94 T.DS (1994-1999)
(ALFAROMEO) - U1 145 BZ/DS (1994-1996)
(ALFAROMEO) - U2 146 BZ/DS (1995-1996)
(ALFAROMEO) - T5 145 GAMMA 97 (1997-1999)
(ALFAROMEO) - T6 146 GAMMA 97 (1997-1999)
(ALFAROMEO) - T4 155 GAMMA 96 DS (1996-1997)
(FIAT) - 1G STRADA (1999-....)
...and P/n - 7757956 (No. 5 in picture 2)
(FIAT) - 1D UNO MONDO (1995-....)
(FIAT) - NX PUNTO D-TD (1993-1997)
(FIAT) - 1B PUNTO TB.DS. GAMMA'97 (1997-1999)
(FIAT) - NT TIPO MAQ.93 D-TD (1993-1995)
(FIAT) - NJ TEMPRA MQ.93 D-TD (1993-1996)
(FIAT) - PU MAREA DIESEL (1996-1999)
(FIAT) - 2A SIENA EXTRA EUROPA (1997-2002)
(FIAT) - PY PALIO/WEEKEND EUROPA (1997-2002)
(FIAT) - 1X PALIO 2V EXTRA EUROPA (1997-2002)
(LANCIA) - SQ N.DELTA TB/DS (1994-1999)
(LANCIA) - RZ DEDRA TURBO DIESEL (1989-1994)
(LANCIA) - SN DEDRA FL.94 T.DS (1994-1999)
(ALFAROMEO) - U1 145 BZ/DS (1994-1996)
(ALFAROMEO) - U2 146 BZ/DS (1995-1996)
(ALFAROMEO) - T5 145 GAMMA 97 (1997-1999)
(ALFAROMEO) - T6 146 GAMMA 97 (1997-1999)
(ALFAROMEO) - T4 155 GAMMA 96 DS (1996-1997)
wrinx
better to see here
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h279/kepsus/HPIM3689.jpg
Who have made this mods, and get it to work ?
Might be worth you sendin #84 a private message in case he doesn't visit here very often ;)
wrinx
Ok,
I have found the part numbers to be wrong and Kepsus has got the corrections. I have also corrected the part numbers in my previous post and corrected the gear ratios.
Correct:
774 51 53 and 608 11 731
37/30 - ratio
Please be aware that there are many references to my posts in this thread and that thse references still have the wrong information.
So, how could it get that wrong? Well, I searched in the Fiat ePER database for gearboxes to the 2.0 litre 16V Lampredi engine and found for the Lancia Delta HPE HF (which I knew had higher 5:th gear) some useful information for the TB model. Since I didn't check any engine details I didn't realise that the TB was a small SOHC Fiat engine found in the cheapest Lanica models. The turbo version was listed under 1750 cc 132 c.v. of some strange reason. The workshop who made the upgrade must have found the part numbers to be wrong, ordered the correct ones, but did never tell me. So, as you can see, the gear ratio is also a bit different 37/30 instead of 39/31.
Sorry.
Thanks for the update :D
wrinx
yeah thanks, anyone buy my old wrong gearwheel :-D
Throw it into Sweden, it may hit #84 on the head.
lol Sweden so close to me.. i can try
yeah thanks, anyone buy my old wrong gearwheel :-D
I have two cheap gears too.. :/
arjunior45
14-03-09, 13:34
Ok,
I have found the part numbers to be wrong and Kepsus has got the corrections. I have also corrected the part numbers in my previous post and corrected the gear ratios.
Correct:
774 51 53 and 608 11 731
37/30 - ratio
A little bit of help needed, from all of you whom just made this mod - not just from Andreas.
Can someone tell me how many engine rpm drops do you see changing from the 4th to the 5th gear, keeping speed inalterate?
Thanks
Nick
arjunior45
07-10-09, 18:28
Did anyone do this mod, using Delta HPE HF 5th gear with the part numbers mentioned previously by Andreas?
I had a little search and according to what I found, both Alfa 155 Q5, Lancia HPE HF {'93 - '99}, FIAT Coupe 16VT and Lancia Delta Integrale have the EXACT SAME RATIO {0,917} for the 5th gear!!!
How can they have the EXACT same ratio {according to their manuals} using :
- Q4 : a 32/35 teeth gears
and
- HPE HF : a 30/37 teeth gears?
arjunior45
07-10-09, 18:31
p.s.
according to a French friend of mine {with an HPE HF} his car use the same gearbox with the FIAT Coupe 16VT!!!!
arjunior45
30-10-09, 11:44
new infos about.
Only the Lancia Nuova Delta HPE HF of 1999, mounts the 'longer' 5th gear {and the 2,5 Turbo Diesel} and gear ratio is 0,811 {according to Lancia's owners manual}, very close to the 30/37 teeth. All the earlier Lancia models {Integrale included} mounts the same gear ratios as our Q4 and FIAT Coupe 16vt.
Parts cost {here in Greece} are 191 and 155 - total 346 euro.
Hope part numbers mentioned by #84# are correct and they will arrive before Christmas here in Greece.
Will order these as well,
Already have the strengthening plate fitted.
Anyone had any problems after this mod, shouldn?t be any but just asking anyway.
cheers
Steve Webb
31-01-12, 20:26
Have you got hold id these parts yet Dave?
I have sorted out that they can be ordered from my local Alfa Dealer, but have not ordered yet as I thought the price was very high!? approx 200Euro/each, so I am still looking about for better price elsewhere..
Maybe IŽll order them soon if I canŽt find them anywhere else..
Steve Webb
01-02-12, 09:17
Ouch, is that €200 per gear? Thats an awful lot of money for a couple of lumps of metal. Not sure where else you will be able to get the parts from though. If you are going to do this modification you will want the peace of mind that comes from genuine Fiat Spa parts.
RMB-Racing
15-02-13, 14:00
Hi Steve aka Webmaster!
Can we please move everything in this post that's not about ny gearbox, into another post for itself, as this post actually is about my gearbox project?!!
Thanks.. ;o)
Steve Webb
17-02-13, 11:56
I've moved all the recent discussion about longer 5th gears over to its own thread now.
So how did your rebuilt gearbox hold up?
RMB-Racing
20-02-13, 17:37
I've moved all the recent discussion about longer 5th gears over to its own thread now.
So how did your rebuilt gearbox hold up?
Well, actually I dont know... :unsure:
The project have been stranded for a couple of years. So the car haven't been on the road yet...
But hey - I have finished some rust job on the buttom of the car, and have painted the buttom.. ;-)
Next step is sandblasting the suspension components and repainting.
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