Coolant Temperature Sensor checking.

[arjunior45]

Waiting for the new ICV to arrive I'd like to check the engine's coolant temperature sensor.
Does anyone know the resistances at the various temps? Can't see the numbers in the manual. Mostly I concern about 50, 70 and 90 degrees.

Nick

[wrinx]

Took some finding! In the "Fuel System":

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g118/wrinx/Q4/Q4_coolantsensorMedium.jpg

wrinx

[AlfaJack]

I have to do this later on as I suspect it might be the cause of my problem when the engine gets over 90C.

[arjunior45]

Thanks wrinx,

today I've checked the "ecu" manual {pg. 29-25} and as far as I can see gives:
+80 C = 0.377 Khom
+60 C = 0.746 Khom
+40 C = 1.598 Khom
+20 C = 3.747 Khom
0 C = 8.750 Khom
-10 C = 16.599 Khom
-20 C = 29.121 Khom
-30 C = 53.100 Khom
-40 C = 100.950 Khom
{same values are indicated for the 'air temp sensor'}.

I've disconnected the 'connector' and connected the multimeter's pins to the sensor's pins. Got no indication-reading at all, at ambient temp. Am I doing something wrong?

Nick

[AlfaJack]

Is your meter on the right settings?
Sensor is bad?

Try the same on the air temp one

[arjunior45]

Is your meter on the right settings?
Sensor is bad?

Try the same on the air temp one

Thanks AlfaJack.
Nope, my meter was at 200 Ohm and gave me no reading. Adjust it at 20Kohm and gave me 1.76Kohm at ambient temp {little less that 40 degrees C today's temp}. So, I presume it works.

Nick

[AlfaJack]

Sounds ok for 40ish C (couldnt live in that!!)

I know mine is good at 20C but at 90+C I am not so sure.

I got some readings from it the other day when hot and they were all wrong (I think about 20Kohm). I thought I was getting some sort of interference so I removed it from the car and cooled it down and re-tested, it was perfect so I thought it was ok and ruled it out of my problem but now I think it could give bad readings only in certain ranges of temp so I need to test it again properly.

They are about €20 for a new one (Bosch).

[arjunior45]

Sounds ok for 40ish C (couldnt live in that!!)

I know mine is good at 20C but at 90+C I am not so sure.

I got some readings from it the other day when hot and they were all wrong (I think about 20Kohm). I thought I was getting some sort of interference so I removed it from the car and cooled it down and re-tested, it was perfect so I thought it was ok and ruled it out of my problem but now I think it could give bad readings only in certain ranges of temp so I need to test it again properly.

They are about ?20 for a new one (Bosch).

Do you have the Bosch part number? Testing it over and over again I think it will 'cost' me more in time and doubts.

Nick

[AlfaJack]

Not to hand, nor can I find it on the web :(

If I need to get one I will post the number. Maybe someone else has a link to the online catalogue??

[AlfaJack]

OK, I think I do need a new one as I tested it and up to abour 92C it is fine, after that it goes open loop - I think this is why my car is cutting out at high temps.

I will try and get a new one this week and tell you the part number :)

http://www.cloverleaf4.co.uk/images/uploads/10947.jpg

[arjunior45]

I think I'll remove and check mine too.
Waiting for the part number.

Nick

[Steve Webb]

OK, I think I do need a new one as I tested it and up to abour 92C it is fine, after that it goes open loop - I think this is why my car is cutting out at high temps.

I will try and get a new one this week and tell you the part number :)

http://www.cloverleaf4.co.uk/images/uploads/10947.jpg

Yes but more importantly, were they blueberry or choc chip muffins?

[AlfaJack]

LOL, knew someone would ask, Blueberry! ;)

[Evodelta]

What do you call a Chinaman with one chopstick?

Fu King clever!



(I'll get me coat)

[AlfaJack]

Bosch part number is: 0280130026 - Cost ?13

[arjunior45]

Bosch part number is: 0280130026 - Cost ?13

thanks a lot Jack.
I'll search for one as soon as possible.

After mounting the 'new' icv {although I still can't bring my idle lower than 900 rpm} at 60 deg C idle drops sudenly to 700 - 850 rpm and if I hit the brakes at that temp engine goes off. At lower or higher temp I have not such problem. If I'll have the time, I'll try to test this valve this weekend {in the pot} but 90% I need a new NTC valve.

Nick

[arjunior45]

Bosch part number is: 0280130026 - Cost ?13


Dear Jack

yesterday I've downloaded the Bosch 0280130026 datasheet and according to this, the resistances are :
-10 C = 8.26 - 10.56 Kohm {14.66 - 18.84 [16.599] Kohm for the OEM one}
+20 C = 2.28 - 2.72 Kohm {3.40 - 4.13 [3.747] Kohm for the OEM one}
+80 C + 0.290 - 0.364 K ohm {0.34 - 0.42 [0.377] Kohm for the OEM one}

as you can see, there are quite some differences in the resistance values between OEM and Bosch NTC and I wonder if there will be a problem at low temperatures. At - 10 degrees C there are more than 6 Kohm of difference and the Bosch value correspond to almost 0 degrees C for the OEM one.
Who told you about this Bosch replacement? Did someone use the Bosch one in his car without any problems?

Regards

Nick

[AlfaJack]

Hi Nick, I also measured it at 20C and saw the difference. It was the motor spares computer after he entered the Q4 detaild that said its the correct one, as it was only ?13 I decided to fit it and try, I was expecting some strange behaviour but it was fine

[arjunior45]

Hi Nick, I also measured it at 20C and saw the difference. It was the motor spares computer after he entered the Q4 detaild that said its the correct one, as it was only ?13 I decided to fit it and try, I was expecting some strange behaviour but it was fine

Thanks Jack,

I found one here in Athens but I arrived at the store 3-4 minutes late and it was close. I'll go again on Monday and price is 12 euro +VAT.

Thanks again

Nick.

[AlfaJack]

Thanks Jack,

I found one here in Athens but I arrived at the store 3-4 minutes late and it was close. I'll go again on Monday and price is 12 euro +VAT.

Thanks again

Nick.

Hi Nick,

Did you buy and try this?
If so, what did you think?
At the moment I am not convinced. With my car and these different resistance readings of this sensor, when the engine is cold, for the first mile of driving it feels like there is less power, as it warms it then feels better and normal.

Interested to know what you think.

I am not too bothered because this one cost ?13 - the Alfa one is ?40+delivery!:eek:

[arjunior45]

Dear AlfaJack,

with the one mounted before {a Jaeger one} apart the idle problems {yet not solved all} I had noticed a 'strange' behaviour at arround 60 deg C. With the Bosch one I have not any irregularity at any degrees. It is much smoother now.
But I can't tell you much when the engine is cold, as temperatures here in Athens were not bellow 35 deg C for the last 3 weeks. I also use a 0.6bar boost map these days till to sort out all the other problems I have with this car, so I can not tell you much concerning power.
Anyway, I did not notice any power lost even for the first mile-Km but certainly goes better with engine warm.

In theory, for a 'state of art' replacement of the CTS with different readings we should also alterate the chip's - eprom's data at hex address: 0023-0 up to 0023-f for the Q4 with IMMO {722-0 to 722-f for skinny Q4 } which is the address for the CTS {Bit > Air Temperature correspondance table - 2d map), using the formula: val= 0,625(T+4}
T=0,625(val-4}
T= temp in Celsius.
With a non proper CTS {like the Bosch one} ecu probably 'read' a higher temp than the actual one and give less fuel. This I believe hapens only up to 70 deg C where readings come closer. But I do not believe that there should be any risk for the engine.

During winter time I'll try to alterate this address and see if this will make any difference. In a so hot summer time I do not believe I'll be able to notice any improvement.

Hope this can be of some help.

Regards

Nick

[AlfaJack]

Thanks Nick. I can not alter the EPROM, because 1. I will probably break it, and 2. It is a Squadra chip and I think the map will be locked in to it...

[arjunior45]

Thanks Nick. I can not alter the EPROM, because 1. I will probably break it, and 2. It is a Squadra chip and I think the map will be locked in to it...

why don't you ask Stefan{Squadra} to alter this hex address for you? I believe it won't be such difficult for him.
His chips are codified and I can not touch-alterate it.

Nick

[AlfaJack]

I could but I would need to send the chip to him and my OEM one has a broken leg lol

[arjunior45]

I could but I would need to send the chip to him and my OEM one has a broken leg lol

ask him and if he will reply positively I'll send you a chip with the OEM map.

Nick

[AlfaJack]

I will do :) Thanks Nick!

[MaxiBoost]

Dear AlfaJack,

with the one mounted before {a Jaeger one} apart the idle problems {yet not solved all} I had noticed a 'strange' behaviour at arround 60 deg C. With the Bosch one I have not any irregularity at any degrees. It is much smoother now.
But I can't tell you much when the engine is cold, as temperatures here in Athens were not bellow 35 deg C for the last 3 weeks. I also use a 0.6bar boost map these days till to sort out all the other problems I have with this car, so I can not tell you much concerning power.
Anyway, I did not notice any power lost even for the first mile-Km but certainly goes better with engine warm.

In theory, for a 'state of art' replacement of the CTS with different readings we should also alterate the chip's - eprom's data at hex address: 0023-0 up to 0023-f for the Q4 with IMMO {722-0 to 722-f for skinny Q4 } which is the address for the CTS {Bit > Air Temperature correspondance table - 2d map), using the formula: val= 0,625(T+4}
T=0,625(val-4}
T= temp in Celsius.
With a non proper CTS {like the Bosch one} ecu probably 'read' a higher temp than the actual one and give less fuel. This I believe hapens only up to 70 deg C where readings come closer. But I do not believe that there should be any risk for the engine.

During winter time I'll try to alterate this address and see if this will make any difference. In a so hot summer time I do not believe I'll be able to notice any improvement.

Hope this can be of some help.

Regards

Nick

nick ,
is this adress "temperature correction/injection" or "idle speed set point" ?

[arjunior45]

nick ,
is this adress "temperature correction/injection" or "idle speed set point" ?

Dear Hakkan,

this addresses is the one that convert the input {volt} from the CTS into bit which affect the injection.
The 'temperature correction/injection' {or '% Injection correction in Cold start'} is the hex address 001a-0 up to 001d-f on 101.05 IMMO bin - or 00719-0 up to 0071c-f on 101.04 bin.

Nick

[MaxiBoost]

nick ,

this adreses must be different ,
idle speed correcting /NTC sensor (cst -ntc -temperature sensor all the same)
injection correcting /NTC sensor

the cold starts data we know ,
@wolf give us that adress
but cold start data only enjectors detail ,isnt it ?

Did you any new Q4 eprom adress ?
ie :
knock strategy ,
closed loop detail ,
etc etc ??

hakan


EDIT:
I mean ,
follow the coolant parts pls.


http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/6991/icpshots001ri2.th.png (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=icpshots001ri2.png)


http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/9308/icpshots004hp0.th.png (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=icpshots004hp0.png)


http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8586/icpshots007qx4.th.png (http://img257.imageshack.us/my.php?image=icpshots007qx4.png)


http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/826/icpinjectionmodifiers1eu9.th.png (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=icpinjectionmodifiers1eu9.png)

[jimnielsen]

Nick - do you have a "complete" or any list of addresses for the different tables in 101.05? I have the ones from 101.04 - that work fine in TunerPro RT - but I'd like to get the same data for 101.05 if it exists?

thanks, jimn~

[Juan AR155Q4]

I have the ones from 101.04 - that work fine in TunerPro RT -

Jim,
Are these the ones in the XDF file or have you got something new?

[arjunior45]

Nick - do you have a "complete" or any list of addresses for the different tables in 101.05? I have the ones from 101.04 - that work fine in TunerPro RT - but I'd like to get the same data for 101.05 if it exists?

thanks, jimn~

Jim,

the various maps at 101.04 and 101.05IMMO are almost 100% identical to each other.
101.05 immo : starts from 000001-0 up to 000067-F
101.04 : starts from 000700-0 up to 000766-F

No, I do not have an xdf for 101.05 IMMO but you could work with the xdf for 101.04 on the 101.04 bin and then replace the corresponding maps to the 101.05 IMMO bin.
Do you have a different xdf from the one from wolf {in the download section of the site}? That will be very interesting!!!

I do have a lot of hex addresses from the maps location but as I've told to AlfaJack I do not have the opportunity and the spare time to test them in my car. So, I believe that they are not that reliable to post them here.

But if you have a look at Integrale 16V bin and 101.04 - 101.05IMMO bin you will see that trere are too many similar maps in them.
Map zone for integrale 16v starts from hex address : 000360-0.
Calculating formula for the values are {almost} the same - for Alfa bins and Integrale 16V bins. They are different from the other P8 IAWs {Evo 2 - FIAT Coupe 16VT}.

If you open the xdf file for Integrale 16V - Evo1 you can see all the maps and the calculating formula.
There is still a lot {maybe too much} of homework to be done -at least for me- in order to have a reliable xdf for Q4 and I'm very ...slow, sorry.

I believe that in the Q4's map there is the possibility to have the ALS - bang-bang function and that is what is very interesting for a race car.

Image is from Integrale 16V xdf and I believe it will be helpful.

Nick

[MaxiBoost]

Jim also ask me "what is the control panel aplication?"

Jim ,
follow the link please ,

http://rptune.eu.org/

[arjunior45]

Yes, they made quite a proggress and finaly I saw there is something for Q4 too!

But it is not my case. I need to understand how the various maps works and not just to alter the values and see what happens.

Their IAW Monitor though I think is what is needed to tune the engine in a proper way.

Nick.