View Full Version : Boost and waterspray issues
My car is boost is about 9 psi and ive read that it should have about 14 psi . All hooses are Ok, vacuum hooses, pierburg connected but cant feel any overboost also. Any ideas of what`s the problem? faulty pierburg?
Any sugestions?
Also, ive been trying to make the waterspray work, the relay is on its place, ive tried joining the cables of the pressure sensor, and i cant hear the relay clicking. I think that maybe there is another relay, or the relay im checking is not the correct.
Ive tried to conect the electric pumps directly to 12v and they work great.
heeeellpppppp !!
thanks
Also, ive been trying to make the waterspray work, the relay is on its place, ive tried joining the cables of the pressure sensor, and i cant hear the relay clicking. I think that maybe there is another relay, or the relay im checking is not the correct.
Ive tried to conect the electric pumps directly to 12v and they work great.
heeeellpppppp !!
I have some original documentation on this subject :smoke:
I'll try to look it up tonight and post the images on the web and make them available to you. It's the complete electronic diagram and the installation instruction of all the components. The only downside might be, that it's in German :rolleyes: (not sure).
Greetings,
Marc
If you suspect the pierburg, you could temporarily pull the hose between the pierburg and the turbo. BE CAREFUL because you have now disabled the overboost protection, so try with moderate throttle first. If it's your pierburg not working or being controlled wrong, you should now have masses of boost. Put the hose back after trying, it's better for your wallet.
If you suspect the pierburg, you could temporarily pull the hose between the pierburg and the turbo. BE CAREFUL because you have now disabled the overboost protection, so try with moderate throttle first. If it's your pierburg not working or being controlled wrong, you should now have masses of boost. Put the hose back after trying, it's better for your wallet.
I know but in that case , it will boost to infinite!! , i dont want to try that jeje
Maybe ill can try with a manual boost controler.
There is no other way to test the pierburg or make it produce more boost??
I have some original documentation on this subject :smoke:
I'll try to look it up tonight and post the images on the web and make them available to you. It's the complete electronic diagram and the installation instruction of all the components. The only downside might be, that it's in German :rolleyes: (not sure).
Greetings,
Marc
great =) please post it , it can be really usefull for others also. :smile:
I know but in that case , it will boost to infinite!! , i dont want to try that jeje
Maybe ill can try with a manual boost controler.
There is no other way to test the pierburg or make it produce more boost??
It won't boost to infinite, your ECU will hit cutoff because of the knock-sensor kicking in. (roughly at 1.5 BAR) You can drive carefully, not at full throttle with this setup for a few minutes just to test. I know BrulTM did all this when he replaced his turbo and he had trouble with the waste-gate not opening correctly. If I remember correctly, he even drove the car to work for a week. There are other methods to test more precisely, but I'd reccomend not going there until you are certain it has to do with the waste-gate and pierburg.
Other causes could be a faulty knock-sensor, stuck waste-gate, or leaks in your inlet- or outlet trajectory. If you want to test if your waste-gate is stuck, make sure you carefully measure/mark/note the length of the arm to the actuator, it should be set to exactly that and the angle to the actuator should also not be changed. You can loosen the arm and try to move the waste-gate manually (make sure the engine is cold and not running of course) to verify it's not stuck. Finding leaks works best with dishwashing-soap. Dilute slightly with water so bubbles form easily and apply on your inlet trajectory. Any leak should now produce bubbles.
It won't boost to infinite, your ECU will hit cutoff because of the knock-sensor kicking in. (roughly at 1.5 BAR) You can drive carefully, not at full throttle with this setup for a few minutes just to test. I know BrulTM did all this when he replaced his turbo and he had trouble with the waste-gate not opening correctly. If I remember correctly, he even drove the car to work for a week. There are other methods to test more precisely, but I'd reccomend not going there until you are certain it has to do with the waste-gate and pierburg.
Other causes could be a faulty knock-sensor, stuck waste-gate, or leaks in your inlet- or outlet trajectory. If you want to test if your waste-gate is stuck, make sure you carefully measure/mark/note the length of the arm to the actuator, it should be set to exactly that and the angle to the actuator should also not be changed. You can loosen the arm and try to move the waste-gate manually (make sure the engine is cold and not running of course) to verify it's not stuck. Finding leaks works best with dishwashing-soap. Dilute slightly with water so bubbles form easily and apply on your inlet trajectory. Any leak should now produce bubbles.
Great thanks WhizzMan ill try all those things. There is any procedure to check the knock sensor ?
If I remember correctly, he even drove the car to work for a week.
I believe I drove the car for almost two weeks due to a lack of time :eek:
But you have to be really carefull!! Yes the pressure sensor will give you a fuel cut.. This moment comes very quickly. You really need to be gentle with the throtle!! Don't rev!! Drive very careful and accelerate very slow!! If you have a turbo meter you will see why ;)
I drove mine on the sound and feeling :eek: I never drove faster than approxemately 75 KM/H The ECU was continiously taking over otherwise....
Greetings,
Marc
Great thanks WhizzMan ill try all those things. There is any procedure to check the knock sensor ?
I have no more clue than you do. I presume there's a procedure in the workshop manual that describes it. I personally would pull the plug and see if there's a difference because I'm too lazy to thumb through a PDF. However, it might be wiser to read first and find out if there is a better way to do it. Of course, be careful, the knock-sensor is there for a reason and if you disable it you disable a safety-catch for your engine's health. Just try briefly if there's a difference, don't combine with other "tests" like pulling the pierburg-hose etc.
Oh, another question, are you certain you have a lack of power? Could it be just your indicator being off? It wouldn't be the first time someone started hunting a problem and found out later that the problem was in his measuring equipment and not in the car.
Where is the knock sensor in the Q4?
in the most fucked up place ! under the intake manifold betwen the 2. and 3. cylinder.
Ah, another inaccessible part of the Q4:doh:
Going to have to sort out that swear filter :tongue2::tongue2:
Don't put a swear filter on, you won't be able to follow the conversation if you only let the swearing through.
Oh, regarding the water-spray not working: could it be you don't achieve enough turbo-pressure for the ECU to activate it?
could it be you don't achieve enough turbo-pressure for the ECU to activate it?
You will need at least 0,6 bar to activate the pressure sensor.
Greetings,
Marc
You will need at least 0,6 bar to activate the pressure sensor.
Greetings,
Marc
yes , thats right.
but ive read that to check if the pumps and system works, you have to join both cables of the presure sensor, and the pumps will start working. but that didnt happen in my case, I cant hear any relay ticking =( .
I can see that the relay is on its place ( i hope im checking the right relay) . Ive tried connecting the pumps direct to 12v and they work fine.
So if someone knows how to make the waterspray work i would be verry happy :smile:
I never got mine to work, so I made a manual override for it, a switch by the gear stick - I just use it if I do a track day :)
Steve Webb
27-05-08, 17:53
So if someone knows how to make the waterspray work i would be verry happy :smile:
You have seen this page haven't you?
http://www.berlinasportivo.com/Technical/waterspray/waterspray.php
Steve
Well i tend to swear when i think of inacessible parts on a q4 so for q4 owners swearing should be alowed everywhere( in curch also)
On topic!
You can test it simply conect it to a compresor unit whit a presure gauge and fil it up and test when it woorks Read the manual its all there!
You have seen this page haven't you?
http://www.berlinasportivo.com/Technical/waterspray/waterspray.php
Steve
Oh thanks steve, i havent seen that page, but ive checked all the thing it says, ill try with a new relay, because maybe the one that is installed it s not working.
Its a simple and conventional relay? or it has something special?.
thanks =)
Part number in the article on page two refers to a hose, it should be 60577687 (as quoted on page one).
wrinx
I have a series 1; with the relay of origin this one is only fixed has right of fuse box it just needs to feed it with one + and pumps work!!!!
great =) please post it , it can be really usefull for others also. :smile:
Took a bit longer than I origanally said :redface:
Unfortunately it's all in the German language and the quallity isn't that good. The positive thing is, this is a copy of the original documentation :cool:
But here are the images...
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n288/BrulTM/Alfa%20155%20Q4%20Tech/pag1.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n288/BrulTM/Alfa%20155%20Q4%20Tech/pag2.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n288/BrulTM/Alfa%20155%20Q4%20Tech/pag3.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n288/BrulTM/Alfa%20155%20Q4%20Tech/pag4.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n288/BrulTM/Alfa%20155%20Q4%20Tech/pag5.jpg
Good luck everybody.
Greetings,
Marc
If you suspect the pierburg, you could temporarily pull the hose between the pierburg and the turbo. BE CAREFUL because you have now disabled the overboost protection, so try with moderate throttle first. If it's your pierburg not working or being controlled wrong, you should now have masses of boost. Put the hose back after trying, it's better for your wallet.
Did this today and wow!!!!
What a difference :smoke: It made my car what I thought it should be....much more responsive, much faster to boost and saw 1.4bar before I even realised!!!
Soooo, Pierburg or actuator? I know the actuator moves.
wrinx
Did this today and wow!!!!
What a difference :smoke: It made my car what I thought it should be....much more responsive, much faster to boost and saw 1.4bar before I even realised!!!
Soooo, Pierburg or actuator? I know the actuator moves.
wrinx
Nice isnt it, it made the drivability much better on mine! Its why I am going to get the electronic boost controller :cool:
Took a bit longer than I origanally said :redface:
Unfortunately it's all in the German language and the quallity isn't that good. The positive thing is, this is a copy of the original documentation :cool:
But here are the images...
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n288/BrulTM/Alfa%20155%20Q4%20Tech/pag1.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n288/BrulTM/Alfa%20155%20Q4%20Tech/pag2.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n288/BrulTM/Alfa%20155%20Q4%20Tech/pag3.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n288/BrulTM/Alfa%20155%20Q4%20Tech/pag4.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n288/BrulTM/Alfa%20155%20Q4%20Tech/pag5.jpg
Good luck everybody.
Greetings,
Marc
Great Info!! ill check the complete system! i hope it works!
By the way, i had the pierburg connected the wrong way i think.
The grey cable should be connected at the radiator side pin of the pierburg, thats right??
My car still gives only 10 psi =( . grhhhhhh
Ill try swapping the pierburg with another Q4 to test it.
By the way, i had the pierburg connected the wrong way i think.
The grey cable should be connected at the radiator side pin of the pierburg, thats right??
I read that is does not matter which way round the wires are.
I read that is does not matter which way round the wires are.
Then why is the connector made with two different schapes for the connecting pins??
Greetings,
Marc
The Pierburg is just a solenoid which is NOT polarity dependant so it will work either way round.
If you connect the Pierburg to a 12v supply you should hear and feel the valve operate either way round
The Pierburg is just a solenoid which is NOT polarity dependant so it will work either way round.
If you connect the Pierburg to a 12v supply you should hear and feel the valve operate either way round
Ehr, to my knowledge a solenoid still depends on polarity. It's basically an electro-magnet with a pin in it. If you reverse the polarity, the pin moves the opposite direction, which in the case of the pierburg, would probably mean it won't move a bit, just click.
Nice isnt it, it made the drivability much better on mine! Its why I am going to get the electronic boost controller :cool:
A cheaper alternative is one of these:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/POWERTEK-BOOST-CONTROLLER-NISSAN-200-SX-TURBO-S13-S14_W0QQitemZ130224416124QQihZ003QQcategoryZ72205Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Make sure you buy one with two inlets/outlets and not three and most importantly DON'T exceed the max boost level which your chip and engine is mapped for.
I can't speak for this particular make, but I have a similar (cheaper) one fitted and the boost comes on nice and strong, particularly mid range and on the motorway where I can get full boost just by squeezing the throttle a bit. It holds max boost at the redline and doesn't tail off, the only downside is fuel consumption drops as you will no doubt be using more full boost.... :biggrin:
A cheaper alternative is one of these:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/POWERTEK-BOOST-CONTROLLER-NISSAN-200-SX-TURBO-S13-S14_W0QQitemZ130224416124QQihZ003QQcategoryZ72205Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Make sure you buy one with two inlets/outlets and not three and most importantly DON'T exceed the max boost level which your chip and engine is mapped for.
I can't speak for this particular make, but I have a similar (cheaper) one fitted and the boost comes on nice and strong, particularly mid range and on the motorway where I can get full boost just by squeezing the throttle a bit. It holds max boost at the redline and doesn't tail off, the only downside is fuel consumption drops as you will no doubt be using more full boost.... :biggrin:
Are you saying that a static boost for all RPMs is better than one that can give you the max boost your engine can handle depending on the RPM? To be safe, you have to set this static controller to the lowest boost (not the maximum as you suggest) allowed by the ECU at any RPM. This way you can't benefit from higher boost at other RPMs and that way you will lose power at those RPMs. This is why they put all the complicated pierburg valve equipment on in stead of a simple valve.
Then why is the connector made with two different schapes for the connecting pins??
Greetings,
Marc
I dont think mine was (before it broke off :eek:), it was just a connection with 2 holes in it :confused:
A cheaper alternative is one of these:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/POWERTEK-BOOST-CONTROLLER-NISSAN-200-SX-TURBO-S13-S14_W0QQitemZ130224416124QQihZ003QQcategoryZ72205Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Make sure you buy one with two inlets/outlets and not three and most importantly DON'T exceed the max boost level which your chip and engine is mapped for.
I can't speak for this particular make, but I have a similar (cheaper) one fitted and the boost comes on nice and strong, particularly mid range and on the motorway where I can get full boost just by squeezing the throttle a bit. It holds max boost at the redline and doesn't tail off, the only downside is fuel consumption drops as you will no doubt be using more full boost.... :biggrin:
I have been warned off these for the reasons Whizz mentions - the price difference is nice though, one tenth of the price! :redface:
If i replace the pierburg with a Manual boost controller, what pressure should i set ??
What happens when you hit max boost with one of these boost controllers?
Really liked the power delivery without the Pierburg :smoke:
Are there any replacements...Pavs?
As my car can reach this boost without there must be a problem with the PV???
wrinx
cuore_sportivo_155
30-05-08, 23:47
Ehr, to my knowledge a solenoid still depends on polarity. It's basically an electro-magnet with a pin in it. If you reverse the polarity, the pin moves the opposite direction, which in the case of the pierburg, would probably mean it won't move a bit, just click.
not likely... metal is atrracted by either the north or south pole of a magnet... when trying to attract another magnet, polarity matters...
As my car can reach this boost without there must be a problem with the PV???
wrinx
Iv lost track, what boost are you currently hitting?
If i replace the pierburg with a Manual boost controller, what pressure should i set ??
Which head gasket do you have?
Which head gasket do you have?
the stock headgasket :cool:
looking at that the standard turbo is capable od 1.4 bar you set it there. The engine is capable of holding 1.6 bar on stock components.
Are you saying that a static boost for all RPMs is better than one that can give you the max boost your engine can handle depending on the RPM? To be safe, you have to set this static controller to the lowest boost (not the maximum as you suggest) allowed by the ECU at any RPM. This way you can't benefit from higher boost at other RPMs and that way you will lose power at those RPMs. This is why they put all the complicated pierburg valve equipment on in stead of a simple valve.
If a chip is mapped for say 1.2 bar then set the valve to 1.2, as long as you don't exceed that you will be ok.
I'm no armchair mechanic who just plucks things from the internet or a manual, I do actually test this stuff out before posting up. I've been running these valves for years with no problems at all, they only get bad press because people get carried away and exceed the max boost that their chip is mapped to and the engine goes bang.
Things have come a long way in the last 20 yrs when the Pierburg valve was first fitted to these engines, a long long way. Cars made in the factory were sent all over the world and so were set to safe limits for use in high altitude areas with poor fuel, I don't live in such an area or such a time so can run my car accordingly.
The P valve tails off the boost because of this and to give the engine and turbo extended life on normal road car, but as we are discussing tuning engines for power here you can throw that analogy out of the window, the second you go for more power then you are reducing the life of the engine and it's components, I thought this was obvious so didn't mention it in my initial post....
The P valve dribbles out the boost signal to the wastegate which in turn causes wastegate creep, a soggy response and reduced max boost at high rpm, fit a boost controller and kiss this goodbye.
Electronic boost controllers are for the max power generation who like to see flashing lights and lots of knobs to twiddle on the dash, I grew out of that years ago, for me the massive additional cost doesn't compare with any benefits it might give. As long as it's got a stop at the upper limit I can regulate the boost with my right foot.
It has to be said though that most of you guys here will be still running the standard weedy turbo and it is a bit delicate, especially when overspun. I traded up to the standard integrale 16v turbo some while back, it's a lot stronger, gives much more power and even then it's small compared to what some people are fitting now.
Thanks, your thoughts mirror mine, I don't like the way the boost trails off and it doesn't happen on my JTD....although Pavs reported a much improved car when he replaced the old PV.
My car is only boosting to 1.1 max, but without the PV connected it easily reached 1.4 where I lifted off!
Its fitted with a Squadra so should easily reach this...and perhaps more???
wrinx
What is the max boost the Squadra chip will give?
I don't mean the turbo, I mean the chip, what is it programmed to give?
Electronic boost controllers are for the max power generation who like to see flashing lights and lots of knobs to twiddle on the dash, I grew out of that years ago
Oh bugger, I must be one of these :redface: :redface:
I can see your point but I thought they served more of a purpose by gauging the amount of boost against the RPM but after reading your post I am not oo worried by it.
I traded up to the standard integrale 16v turbo some while back, it's a lot stronger, gives much more power and even then it's small compared to what some people are fitting now.
I thought the 16v grale and the Q4 had the same unit. Are they both Garrett T3s?
not likely... metal is atrracted by either the north or south pole of a magnet... when trying to attract another magnet, polarity matters...
Okay, then explain to me how an audio-speaker works? Or, even more to the point, how a monorail "maglev" train stays in the air? MAGnetic LEVitation, is what that stands for, it gets pushed away from the magnet in stead of being attracted to it. The same happens to the pin in the solenoid. If you don't believe me, blow through the pierburg valve hose, reverse polarity and see if it still opens.
If a chip is mapped for say 1.2 bar then set the valve to 1.2, as long as you don't exceed that you will be ok.
This is where your logic flaws, the chips doesn't set it at a static maximum boost, but varies the maximum boost according to the RPM the engine is running at at that specific moment. There's a map for that. You can't run 1.4 at 1100 RPM but you can at 3000. If you set the static boost valve at 1.4 you will get massive knock at 1100 RPM and the ECU will retard spark or even stop fuel-injection to save your engine. This will cost you power at 1100 rpm and it won't gain you anything at 3000, so the net effect will be negative.
Things have come a long way in the last 20 yrs when the Pierburg valve was first fitted to these engines, a long long way. Cars made in the factory were sent all over the world and so were set to safe limits for use in high altitude areas with poor fuel, I don't live in such an area or such a time so can run my car accordingly.
The P valve tails off the boost because of this and to give the engine and turbo extended life on normal road car, but as we are discussing tuning engines for power here you can throw that analogy out of the window, the second you go for more power then you are reducing the life of the engine and it's components, I thought this was obvious so didn't mention it in my initial post....
Using tuning chips does exactly the same, but it uses a dynamic map for boost so you can get even more power out of your engine at certain RPMs without blowing it up at others.
The P valve dribbles out the boost signal to the wastegate which in turn causes wastegate creep, a soggy response and reduced max boost at high rpm,
This reduced max boost is programmed into the chip, you can program the pierburg any way you want it, creep and soggy responses are a result of inadequate tuning. The pierburg has several duty-cycle settings, the max of 100% which means full open is available too, so there is no reason you can't set it full open at certain RPMs with boost under the max allowed.
Evodelta do you have tb0385
Evodelta do you have tb0385
Yes I do, here is the full list:
HF turbo: TB0333
Garrett partnr: 466194-0001
HF 4WD: TB0338
Garrett partnr: 466384-0002
INTEGRALE 8v: TBO338
Garrett partnr: 466384-0006
INTEGRALE 16v and EVO I: TB0385
Garrett partnr: 465553-0001
EVO II: TB0367
Garrett partnr: 465103-0006
I think that the Evo II has the same turbo and ECU as the Q4 and Fiat Coupe, yes?
Yes Jack, they are all T3s, this only really relates to the style of the exhaust mounting flange, there are many different sizes within the range, the bigger 16v T3 is a direct swap for the earlier smaller one.
This is where your logic flaws, the chips doesn't set it at a static maximum boost, but varies the maximum boost according to the RPM the engine is running at at that specific moment. There's a map for that. You can't run 1.4 at 1100 RPM but you can at 3000. If you set the static boost valve at 1.4 you will get massive knock at 1100 RPM and the ECU will retard spark or even stop fuel-injection to save your engine. This will cost you power at 1100 rpm and it won't gain you anything at 3000, so the net effect will be negative.
Using tuning chips does exactly the same, but it uses a dynamic map for boost so you can get even more power out of your engine at certain RPMs without blowing it up at others.
This reduced max boost is programmed into the chip, you can program the pierburg any way you want it, creep and soggy responses are a result of inadequate tuning. The pierburg has several duty-cycle settings, the max of 100% which means full open is available too, so there is no reason you can't set it full open at certain RPMs with boost under the max allowed.
Im a little bit confused .
My pierburg definitively is not working . My boost is 9/10 psi at 3500rpm +/- . Now, if i install the manual boost controller and set it so the maximum PSI is 14.5 psi (1 bar). There shouldnt be any problem with that, thats right? . Obviously I cant boost 15 psi at 1500rpm because it will blow up to hell jeje. But if i mantanin the RPM VS Boost , it can be done? .
Suposing that i do this, i install the manual boost control and i set it up to 14.5 psi, the ecu will automatically set the fuel, timing ,etc based on the map, lambda and other sensor readings? . To finish, if i exceed for example, 16 psi, the ignition will cut ?
thank youuu =)
This is where your logic flaws, the chips doesn't set it at a static maximum boost, but varies the maximum boost according to the RPM the engine is running at at that specific moment. There's a map for that. You can't run 1.4 at 1100 RPM but you can at 3000. If you set the static boost valve at 1.4 you will get massive knock at 1100 RPM and the ECU will retard spark or even stop fuel-injection to save your engine. This will cost you power at 1100 rpm and it won't gain you anything at 3000, so the net effect will be negative..
Sorry, but that's rubbish, the chip is mapped to run 1.4 from around 2500 - 3000rpm to the redline, how is a boost controller making it do anything more harmful than this? Answer this please:
What precisely is going to cause 'massive knock' at 1100rpm?
Using tuning chips does exactly the same, but it uses a dynamic map for boost so you can get even more power out of your engine at certain RPMs without blowing it up at others.
This reduced max boost is programmed into the chip, you can program the pierburg any way you want it, creep and soggy responses are a result of inadequate tuning. The pierburg has several duty-cycle settings, the max of 100% which means full open is available too, so there is no reason you can't set it full open at certain RPMs with boost under the max allowed.
You are talking about remapping the car to gain different characteristics at what cost? ?500? I'm talking about a boost controller that will liven up your drive to work for ?25, that isn't comparing like for like.
It's true that a full remap is the way to go to take advantage of any engine mods, but how many of the guys in this thread are going to go to those lengths?
Sorry, but that's rubbish, the chip is mapped to run 1.4 from around 2500 - 3000rpm to the redline, how is a boost controller making it do anything more harmful than this? Answer this please:
What precisely is going to cause 'massive knock' at 1100rpm?
Because the boost controller wil also allow 1.4 at 1100 rpm and that's way too much for that RPM. This will cause the massive knock if your ECU won't intervene by retarding spark and cutting fuel if that won't help. Low RPM, high spark advance combined with much higher boost than optimal for that RPM will cause knock.
You are talking about remapping the car to gain different characteristics at what cost? ?500? I'm talking about a boost controller that will liven up your drive to work for ?25, that isn't comparing like for like.
Of course it isn't comparable, but that doesn't mean your solution is superior, only cheaper. You can get a remap for under UKP 100 by buying one of the "one size fits all" chips, or by burning one yourself from free downloadable examples. If you want to spend a bit more you can buy a squadra tuning chip for E340. A rolling road tuning of your car will cost more, your UKP 500 estimate would most likely be quite accurate. This won't be much use unless you do significant modifications like bolting on a bigger intercooler, change your turbo for another model, change your camshafts etc. etc. If you do such modifications, you would gain from a rolling road tailor-made setup, if you want more grunt from the standard kit, a (squadra)chip is in my opinion superior to bolting on a static boost valve and hardly more expensive.
It's true that a full remap is the way to go to take advantage of any engine mods, but how many of the guys in this thread are going to go to those lengths?
Just changing the very conservative mapping from the factory to a proven working faster one, like Squadra or other chips, will get you much more fun out of your stock setup. I'm sure that someone would be willing to make some chips of the publicly available modified images for beer-money and shipping costs, so that shouldn't be prohibitive. Jim Nielsen is already poking around in the maps to change several parameters so we have at least one member that is making his own chips.
Several people in this thread are already looking at changing cams, swapping turbos etc. so they would benefit from a rolling-road session for tailor made stuff.
Several people in this thread are already looking at changing cams, swapping turbos etc. so they would benefit from a rolling-road session for tailor made stuff.
:eek:...when I begin to understand what's going on :biggrin:
wrinx
jim nielsen is using a chip made by my friend and can you eplain to me How the hell will the turbo spool up at 1100 RPM????? We are not useing bang sytems.Even whit WG fully closed i get boost at 2k rpm and further and yes i will have chip reprogramed for my manual set up boost . I used that model that i can set it from the cabin
At Evodelta mine is like this http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MANUAL-BOOST-CONTROLLER-KIT-TOYOTA-MR2-2-0-16v-TURBO_W0QQitemZ380030368144QQihZ025QQcategoryZ7220 5QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotoho sting
I truly have no experience whit it always done by duty cycle is it ok? And i dont want to be rude or enything but whizmann where do you take your knowledge? I took mine form rally car preparation and from my friends.........
Because the boost controller wil also allow 1.4 at 1100 rpm and that's way too much for that RPM. This will cause the massive knock if your ECU won't intervene by retarding spark and cutting fuel if that won't help. Low RPM, high spark advance combined with much higher boost than optimal for that RPM will cause knock.
Of course it isn't comparable, but that doesn't mean your solution is superior, only cheaper. You can get a remap for under UKP 100 by buying one of the "one size fits all" chips, or by burning one yourself from free downloadable examples. If you want to spend a bit more you can buy a squadra tuning chip for E340. A rolling road tuning of your car will cost more, your UKP 500 estimate would most likely be quite accurate. This won't be much use unless you do significant modifications like bolting on a bigger intercooler, change your turbo for another model, change your camshafts etc. etc. If you do such modifications, you would gain from a rolling road tailor-made setup, if you want more grunt from the standard kit, a (squadra)chip is in my opinion superior to bolting on a static boost valve and hardly more expensive.
Just changing the very conservative mapping from the factory to a proven working faster one, like Squadra or other chips, will get you much more fun out of your stock setup. I'm sure that someone would be willing to make some chips of the publicly available modified images for beer-money and shipping costs, so that shouldn't be prohibitive. Jim Nielsen is already poking around in the maps to change several parameters so we have at least one member that is making his own chips.
Several people in this thread are already looking at changing cams, swapping turbos etc. so they would benefit from a rolling-road session for tailor made stuff.
:funnypost:
So you think that by fitting a boost controller you can get 1.4 bar at just over tickover? :doh:
A chip swap isn't a remap.
I never even implied a manual boost controller is better than a remap, it doesn't even pretend to do the same thing.
I don't think I need to say anymore
The 1100 RPM was an example. You could get pressures like this at 1100 when shifting gears, but only momentarily since the turbo will spool down indeed. My point is, even between 2000 and 6000 rpm the engine works better with the correct max-boost value for that RPM. Swapping chips without changing the maps wouldn't make sense, so yes, it's a remap. Maybe not all values are (drastically) changed, but the whole exercise is done to change maps. You could of course remap the chip to take the manual boost controller into account. But it remains my opinion you will have more overall power (you can of course tune a boost-valve for peak power, so that won't be more with pierburg) and a less "jumpy" powercurve if you use a pierburg controlled by the ECU, than with a static boost-valve.
Im a little bit confused .
My pierburg definitively is not working . My boost is 9/10 psi at 3500rpm +/- . Now, if i install the manual boost controller and set it so the maximum PSI is 14.5 psi (1 bar). There shouldnt be any problem with that, thats right? . Obviously I cant boost 15 psi at 2000rpm because it will blow up to hell jeje. But if i mantanin the RPM VS Boost , it can be done? .
Suposing that i do this, i install the manual boost control and i set it up to 14.5 psi, the ecu will automatically set the fuel, timing ,etc based on the map, lambda and other sensor readings? . To finish, if i exceed for example, 16 psi, the ignition will cut ?
thank youuu =)
buuu nowbody answered me =(
jimnielsen
03-06-08, 08:49
Stuntz is correct in that I am using a set of software that he provided to me. The great thing about it is that its based on 101.04 sw that there is an XDF file for that works with Tuner Pro RT 4.14. So with just a few basic tools you can have a lot of effect. As well, because I'm only really interested in ensuring that I have the maximum possible boost at wide open throttle (without blowing the thing up..) its very easy to make modifications to that specific line of the table that controls the pierburg valve duty cycle. As well, because I have both the basic 101.4 software and the software that Stuntz provided me with, I have created baseline data that shows the relationship between the two at wide open throttle, comparing boost and AFR ratios (using a datalogger). So now its easy for me to modify the software in anyway that I need for my own purposes. And that purpose is simple, because its just a race car, I want the thing to build boost as fast as possible at wide open throttle and to hold it there at (say) 1.3 bar till I have to throttle off for the next corner.
jim.
buuu nowbody answered me =(
Early on in the thread you were advised to disconnect the valve and see if your car will hold boost, have you done it yet?
The reasons for lack of boost could fill a five page essay, start with the basic eliminations first!
The 1100 RPM was an example. You could get pressures like this at 1100 when shifting gears, but only momentarily since the turbo will spool down indeed .
No it won't. You won't see any boost at 1100rpm no matter what you do (unless we are talking about ant-lag etc). In order to get 1100 whilst on the move you would have to change from a low gear into fifth at about 30mph, go out and try it and then report back.
My point is, even between 2000 and 6000 rpm the engine works better with the correct max-boost value for that RPM..
Not really, if a chip is programmed to give correct fuel at 6000rpm on overboost, then you can get it to hold at the same rpm with a manual boost valve and it will still fuel the car correctly, why would it do any thing else? Overboost on chips are designed just like the factory ones, they peak at a certain pressure and then back off. It's the same story at 3, 4 and 5000rpm, the chip is programmed to fuel correctly at this engine speed, it just won't hold it because it tells the OBV to back off.
Don't dismiss it until you've tried it, then you have grounds for arguement, until then you don't, it's just armchair theory.
Swapping chips without changing the maps wouldn't make sense, so yes, it's a remap. Maybe not all values are (drastically) changed, but the whole exercise is done to change maps. You could of course remap the chip to take the manual boost controller into account. But it remains my opinion you will have more overall power (you can of course tune a boost-valve for peak power, so that won't be more with pierburg) and a less "jumpy" powercurve if you use a pierburg controlled by the ECU, than with a static boost-valve.
A remap is where you take a car and map it live on the rollers or on the road, it is unique to that car and no other, a chip change will never have the precise characteristics for that particular car, every engine is different, especially now over ten years since it was built.
Now tell me this power curve below is 'jumpy', it's of my car with an Evocars chip and a manual boost controller, the fuelling was checked and worked well. Ignore the max figures they are irrelevant, look at the curves, they are exactly what you want from a car, early turbo spool up, power curve climbs steep and straight and doesn't dip, torque comes in as early as you can get it and remains relatively nice and flat throughout the rev range, it barely dips off at the end.
You won't get a graph like that with a standard chip swap and the Pierburg valve fitted........
Looks good...what are you running to get 276bhp?
Getting very tempted to try one of these boost controllers as I don't like how the boost trails off.
Any recommendations? Would be nice to have an in-car adjustment...
wrinx
jimnielsen
03-06-08, 11:09
I agree with Whizzman that ............
You won't get a graph like that with a standard chip swap and the Pierburg valve fitted........
but its also possible to do if using the pierburg valve and using software uploaded to an emulator so that you can configure both the duty cycle of the pierburg and the injectors with revs.
Jimn~
Early on in the thread you were advised to disconnect the valve and see if your car will hold boost, have you done it yet?
The reasons for lack of boost could fill a five page essay, start with the basic eliminations first!
yes i have done that very carefully and it boosted a lot, i couldn't get the boost meter very well but it was about 17 / 18 psi when the car cut ignition or fuel.
Sounds reasonable for a standard chip 1.1/1.2bar.
wrinx
I thought the fuel cut happened at 1.5 bar (21.7 psi), does on mine at least.
I thought the fuel cut happened at 1.5 bar (21.7 psi), does on mine at least.
I had the same experience.
Greetings,
Marc
I thought the fuel cut happened at 1.5 bar (21.7 psi), does on mine at least.
I'm getting confused with the Squadra...doesn't that alter the cut off?
wrinx
Dont think so because I am sure I read it in the manual!
EDIT: Page 43 says about the 1.5 Bar limit.
http://berlinasportivo.com/Technical/q4manual/Q4fuel.pdf
Squadra raises the limiter to 7K though.
I thought the fuel cut happened at 1.5 bar (21.7 psi), does on mine at least.
hmmmmm maybe my map sensor is not working proplerly :confused:
Possibly. You would know if its disconnected as the car would seriously over fuel?
Just before the power cuts out, how does the power feel? It should feel very rapid. Are you sure your boost gauge is ok and giving good readings?
Are you in touch with any of the other guys out there with Q4s, maybe you could get a comparison in other car??
Possibly. You would know if its disconnected as the car would seriously over fuel?
Just before the power cuts out, how does the power feel? It should feel very rapid. Are you sure your boost gauge is ok and giving good readings?
Are you in touch with any of the other guys out there with Q4s, maybe you could get a comparison in other car??
Hmm the car doesnt seem to overfuel, i have installed an autometer Air Fuel , it seems to read OK.
The boost meter i think is working OK because ive used another gauge and it reads the same, to get the reading i use the same hoose than the waterspray.
Are the pipes on the OBV the right way around?
Are the pipes on the OBV the right way around?
the pipes of the pierburg? i`ve connected them as the manual says.
Or does he mean BOV - blow off valve/dump valve...?
the pipes of the pierburg? i`ve connected them as the manual says.
Over Boost Valve. So called because it allows the engine to overboost before dropping back a bit to a lower boost :smile:
Pierburg is (or was!) the maker, they are still making automotive parts though.
If the pipes are the wrong way round you will only get base boost which is .6bar. Base boost is often what the ECU will let the engine have if it detects something is wrong through the sensors.
Swap the pipes over, you have nothing to lose.
Failing that it could be a broken OBV.
Or something else, a fault code reader will probably release you from your misery.
Over Boost Valve. So called because it allows the engine to overboost before dropping back a bit to a lower boost :smile:
Pierburg is (or was!) the maker, they are still making automotive parts though.
If the pipes are the wrong way round you will only get base boost which is .6bar. Base boost is often what the ECU will let the engine have if it detects something is wrong through the sensors.
Swap the pipes over, you have nothing to lose.
Failing that it could be a broken OBV.
Or something else, a fault code reader will probably release you from your misery.
hmm ill try swap them, but i have them connected as the manual says. I also have another pierburg from another Q4, ill try swap them, and see if something changes.
Juan AR155Q4
05-06-08, 00:46
1.5 bar is the limit as Q4 uses a 250kPa MAP (100kPa for vacuum and 150kPa for boost, 100kPa=1bar=14.7psi)
Im a little bit confused .
My pierburg definitively is not working . My boost is 9/10 psi at 3500rpm +/- . Now, if i install the manual boost controller and set it so the maximum PSI is 14.5 psi (1 bar). There shouldnt be any problem with that, thats right? . Obviously I cant boost 15 psi at 2000rpm because it will blow up to hell jeje. But if i mantanin the RPM VS Boost , it can be done? .
Suposing that i do this, i install the manual boost control and i set it up to 14.5 psi, the ecu will automatically set the fuel, timing ,etc based on the map, lambda and other sensor readings? . To finish, if i exceed for example, 16 psi, the ignition will cut ?
ECU will set timing and fuel based on MAP reading, that?s why it?ll cut off over 1.5bar, as no info of boost would be given.
OEM boost is set to a peak of 1.1bar and then goes down to 0.8bar
Thanks for clarifying, quite a margin of safety then.
wrinx
hmm ill try swap them, but i have them connected as the manual says. I also have another pierburg from another Q4, ill try swap them, and see if something changes.
Did you ever sort this out?
wrinx
yes, but after solving that, my cambeld decided to cut jeje :doh:
16 new valves , pistons, etc =( (new engine).
The problem was that the intake manifold was loose and that produced loss of boost and strange behaviour. The rest was Ok. the pierburg worked fine.
yes, but after solving that, my cambeld decided to cut jeje :doh:
16 new valves , pistons, etc =( (new engine).
Noooooooooooooooooo :doh::cry::eek:
wrinx
Noooooooooooooooooo :doh::cry::eek:
wrinx
Same thing just happened on Friday to ajcarter!!:mad::mad:
Wtf???? He's not long since replaced all the bets and tensioners...hadn't he?
wrinx
January and not many miles, might have been a foreign object. I saw it the night before at the Ace Cafe. Shame but he has ripped the head off already to start the repair.
My cambelt and tensioners had 10.000 kilometers =( .
I think on tuesday ill have the car finished.
What caused your failure?
wrinx
ajcarter suspects something dropped in to the belt area as the crank pulley has damage on it...and there is no way a belt can do that.
Yeah, I read his thread on FCCUK, the belt damage appears to back up his theory about a bolt getting in there...looks like it's been holed and/or ripped. :(
wrinx
in my case , something dropped inside the belt area and destroyed it, we couldnt find what was , i dont doubt of the mechanic because the car was recently bought and i never took the car to his place-
The belt has a cover, how does anything get in there?
The belt has a cover, how does anything get in there?
:doh: dont know! i think in the lower part it has an opening. maybe there was something in there from the previous owner ( i bought that Q4 3 weeks before ) and after it broke the piece/part/bolt, whatever it was , went out via that opening. Because the belt has marks like something was touching it .
The belt has a cover, how does anything get in there?
AJ thinks it was one of the cover screws which worked loose and got in! Isn't there one underneath the final cover???
wrinx
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