View Full Version : Balancer Belts, Bearings and Tensioner
Hi,
Yesterday whilst running in my new front brakes the balance belt tensioner disintegrated, lots all of its ball bearings on to the road and threw the belt off.
So now I am going to purchase a new tensioner bearing and the bearings inside the balancer shaft pulleys (and change the cam belt+ ten etc)
But despite having done a nut and bolt rebuild on one of these engines in the past I can not remember how to get the bearings off the ends of the balancer shaft?
Do I hold the pulleys with grips and undo the bolt with a socket? Are they on a key to the shaft for timing purposes?
I do have a workshop manual I need to re-read but real world advice is always good.
Thanks
Jack
http://www.cloverleaf4.co.uk/images/uploads/9526.jpg
http://www.cloverleaf4.co.uk/images/uploads/9527.jpg
http://www.cloverleaf4.co.uk/images/uploads/9528.jpg
I think I was confused by looking at the ePer. I do not think there are any bearings in the pulleys of the balancer belt - it would not make sense as it drives the shaft directly.
Any way as I have just posted on other forums, I have just spoken to a 'grale specialist who says that I should be hardly able to notice the lack of a balancer belt.
I certainly could last night, but I realise that when I drove it back the belt was still turning at engine speed and driving the shafts which were probably very much untimed by then due to the demise of the tensioner.
He said they are not really needed. I need to give it a proper run out before I decide to fit new ones or not.
What do you think?
Steve Webb
02-05-08, 06:01
Looks like you had a lucky escape there, its not unknown for balancer belts to take out the cambelt when they let go.
As far as removing the balancer belt, I've heard some people say you can't feel any difference, and some say that it causes alot of vibration. Personally, as your belt seems to have taken itself off, I'd get rid of anything else that is still in there, see if you can live with the extra vibration (if you can feel it) and if you can, just run it without the balancer shafts. After all its one less thing to worry about with the belt removed.
I'm probably going to just replace the cambelt when its next due, and remove the balance belt.
Steve
As far as removing the balancer belt, I've heard some people say you can't feel any difference, and some say that it causes alot of vibration.
The engine reacts a bit different. Some say it runs a bit more agressive, some don't notice the differance. I guess it is different for every enige I suppose. Also if you decide to remove the balancer belts, I think you need to remove the shafts also. There are special caps for sale to close the openings when you removed the balancer shafts.
Greetings,
Marc
Looks like you had a lucky escape there, its not unknown for balancer belts to take out the cambelt when they let go.Steve
Yeah I think I was very lucky:eek:
The engine reacts a bit different. Some say it runs a bit more agressive, some don't notice the differance. I guess it is different for every enige I suppose.
I will let you know how it runs without it. However I do think the timing has jumped as symptoms are:
Slightly lumpy tick over, sounds okish at the engine end but stand by the back and it sounds quite fluttery and not quite right.
Also it has a lack of low down torque and the turbo is taking a bit longer to boost.
and the engine noise when trying to put the power in is different, its quite boomy now.
Hope to check this out soon.
Also if you decide to remove the balancer belts, I think you need to remove the shafts also. There are special caps for sale to close the openings when you removed the balancer shafts.
That requires engine out and lots of work as I hear you have to cap the other end too otherwise you loose oil pressure. I will leave them be :)
Steve Webb
04-05-08, 18:05
Yep sounds like your cambelt has jumped a tooth or two. When I had my first cambelt change done, the garage replaced the belt 1 tooth out. The car seemed smoother at first, and had great low down torque, but it had no top end grunt at all. Great for the traffic light GP, (for once) but above 4000rpm there was bugger all power.
I'm not sure about the need to remove the balance shafts, it might be worth while securing them in place so they don't rotate on their own, but so long as they are left in there the oil pathways are going to stay the same. If you do remove them, yes you need to cap them/use inserts to keep the oil pressure up.
Steve
Have now corrected the timing. It was one tooth out on the crank. I reckon yours would have been a tooth out in the other direction as I had less low down torque.
Anyway, it is now driving as expected power wise but I really think it does need a balancer belt as at mid to righ revs it doesnt feel right and its a bit noisier. In no rush to do it as its running well enough for the moment.
The biggest problem I have is that the bottom crank bolt will not budge! Even with our nice big new compressor its not touching it. I think the air hammer might be a bit weak though.
The bottom pulley is held on by a left hand threaded bolt so you've probably been tightening it up.
The front balancer shaft will turn because the cambelt idler bearing is connected to it, if running without BSB it needs locking to the nearest unused pulley with a large hose clip.
When changing belts it is simply not enough to just change the belts alone, it MUST be done with ALL the associated bearings too as you have just found out. It is also not very clever to re-tension an old cambelt, it could expire now very easily.
To remove the balancer shaft mounted bearings put a long stout bolt (about 6") in the teeth of the pulley and prop it against something equally as strong to stop it from turning, don't get hold of it with bodge-it grips and mash it up.
The bottom pulley is held on by a left hand threaded bolt so you've probably been tightening it up.
Are you 100% sure about that? The manual suggests its right hand thread, not by writing but by a little pic showing an anti clockwise direction, and then below another pic showing a clockwise direction with the torque figures next to it :confused: :confused:
The front balancer shaft will turn because the cambelt idler bearing is connected to it, if running without BSB it needs locking to the nearest unused pulley with a large hose clip.
Even though the bearings are independent? I reved it to 4K on the spot and there was no hint of movement.
When changing belts it is simply not enough to just change the belts alone, it MUST be done with ALL the associated bearings too as you have just found out. It is also not very clever to re-tension an old cambelt, it could expire now very easily.
Thats what I asked for (wouldn't consider anything else), seems I may not have got it - should have asked for all the old bits back or at least marked them in some way for proof. They are not our favoured garage these days.
Parts will be ordered this week. Luckily I barely use the car in the week and the belt looks in great condition.
To remove the balancer shaft mounted bearings put a long stout bolt (about 6") in the teeth of the pulley and prop it against something equally as strong to stop it from turning, don't get hold of it with bodge-it grips and mash it up.
Thanks for the advice. Need I remove them if I am not going to run a balance belt.
And lastly, what are your thoughts and opinions on not running the belt as so far for reasons I do not know it doesnt feel right.
Juan AR155Q4
06-05-08, 02:08
Are you 100% sure about that? The manual suggests its right hand thread, not by writing but by a little pic showing an anti clockwise direction, and then below another pic showing a clockwise direction with the torque figures next to it :confused: :confused:
100% sure is a left hand thread!!!
100% sure is a left hand thread!!!
:eek::eek::eek: Damn the unclear manual!!! Even the parts guru on the 155 forum said it was a normal right hand thread after looking at the manual! :mad:
Bottom left diagram on page 56 of this PDF: http://berlinasportivo.com/Technical/q4manual/Q4engine.pdf - To me it suggests undo turning anti-clockwise and re torque it clockwise.
Ah well, live and learn!
Thanks!
Whether it be a circular saw blade or a pulley etc, a centre mounted fixing should always be viewed with caution as to the handing of the thread, they are put on this way so they can't undo themselves....
Whether it be a circular saw blade or a pulley etc, a centre mounted fixing should always be viewed with caution as to the handing of the thread, they are put on this way so they can't undo themselves....
Yup, agree with that. Just annoyed that the manual is not clear. Our V6s do not have a left handed thread on the crank but my dads Duetto has them on one side for the wheels, now that has troubled some mechanics in the past :biggrin:
Even though the bearings are independent? I reved it to 4K on the spot and there was no hint of movement.
Thats what I asked for (wouldn't consider anything else), seems I may not have got it - should have asked for all the old bits back or at least marked them in some way for proof. They are not our favoured garage these days.
Parts will be ordered this week. Luckily I barely use the car in the week and the belt looks in great condition.
Thanks for the advice. Need I remove them if I am not going to run a balance belt.
And lastly, what are your thoughts and opinions on not running the belt as so far for reasons I do not know it doesnt feel right.
I think we may be talking about different bearings here perhaps, (a labeled diagram would help maybe?) the cambelt idler bearing is mounted on the balancer shaft so not independant and which is why it can spin it when there is no BB fitted. If it doesn't then maybe your shaft bearings are buggered. It must be spinning if you are feeling imbalance, you wouldn't notice anything otherwise as your engine is sat on floppy rubber bushes.
As to whether to run a BB or not, well my choice is on a road car yes, on a full on comp car engine no, I believe it was put there for a good reason.
I think we may be talking about different bearings here perhaps, (a labeled diagram would help maybe?) the cambelt idler bearing is mounted on the balancer shaft so not independant and which is why it can spin it when there is no BB fitted. If it doesn't then maybe your shaft bearings are buggered. It must be spinning if you are feeling imbalance, you wouldn't notice anything otherwise as your engine is sat on floppy rubber bushes.
As to whether to run a BB or not, well my choice is on a road car yes, on a full on comp car engine no, I believe it was put there for a good reason.
Cheers. yep that would make it easier.
In the diagram, is number 4 the cam belt idler? and is number 6 the bearing for the BB tensioner (the one that just broke up) ?
If I turn the front balance shaft by hand it feels quite free (same as it did on the engine I rebuilt)
And a cambelt, cambelt tensioner too? You might aswell do the whole lot while you are in there, if all the bearings and belts are done at the same time and to the correct tension then you have peace of mind for a while.
And a cambelt, cambelt tensioner too? You might aswell do the whole lot while you are in there, if all the bearings and belts are done at the same time and to the correct tension then you have peace of mind for a while.
Yes definitely. Looking forward to get it done :)
All ordered.
?136 delivered from http://www.alternativeautos.co.uk/ or
?130 delivered from http://www.shop4parts.co.uk/ but they didn't have it all in stock.
Part numbers for reference:
Cam Belt: 7774591
Cam Belt Tensioner: 5997325
Balancer Belt: 7614999
Balancer Belt Tensioner Bearing: 7541712
Cam belt Idler Bearing: 5999795
Next problem after the crank bolt which is now out.
I have replaced the bearing inside the balancer belt tensioner wheel with part number 7541712. Then I took the eccentric bit off the block which contains the remains of the old bearing and go to fit it inside the new bearing but it really doesnt look like its going to fit (I know I need to remove the old bearing ball race before final fit ;)).
The width of the eccentric part is the same as the outer part of the inner metal circle of the bearing (if that makes sense) - i.e its never going to fit inside the bearing.
I believe I have the right part but I am at a loss as to why it will not fit. Have a look at the pics:
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Balancer Belt Tensioner Bearing Packaging
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Any ideas? :doh: :doh:
Juan AR155Q4
15-05-08, 14:42
You have the inner part of the old bearing in there.
You have to take it out and get something like this:
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8758/foto0008mb8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Interesting, 2 pieces! I need a better look at it later. I was rushing too much last night to finish up in the garage. I know I have to take that part of the old bearing off but I didnt think it would reveal anything.
Cheers Juan!
Interesting, 2 pieces! I need a better look at it later. I was rushing too much last night to finish up in the garage. I know I have to take that part of the old bearing off but I didnt think it would reveal anything.
Cheers Juan!
That is that sorted, thanks again :smoke:
Next issue, what does the timing mark on the water pump look like so I can set the rear balance shaft? I can not seem to find it. There is a small ridge that is about 8mm wide, is this supposed to be it?
Job now done and thanks for all the help. I think the cam belt is tensioned correctly but of course I do not have the special tools for it. The longest part free of the belt has a 90 degree turn by hand but its difficult to get in there to get a good gripping on it. Not a lot of deflection between the cam wheels (which I swapped for the later ones)
Juan AR155Q4
19-05-08, 23:59
Job now done and thanks for all the help. I think the cam belt is tensioned correctly but of course I do not have the special tools for it. The longest part free of the belt has a 90 degree turn by hand but its difficult to get in there to get a good gripping on it. Not a lot of deflection between the cam wheels (which I swapped for the later ones)
If you can turn it 90 degree easily you'll have no problem.
How did you solved the countershaft timing? I can't remember if it should be aligned with a bolt from the water pump.
I got it confirmed by the Evocorner forum, you set to TDC and the rear points to 6 o'clock - there is a mark on the water pump but its a bit tricky to see.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/GialloEvo94/Lancia%20Delta%20Integrale/Literature/TimingBeltMarks.jpg
jimnielsen
29-05-08, 02:53
AlfaJack - I want to change the timing belt and balance belt and associated 'bits' on my Q4.
1. How hard is this job?
2. Are the set of parts in the pic (from Walkers) the right ones
3. Do i need anything else?
.. what about these onnes from Ebay - a lot cheaper.. but is it the right stuff??
ebay
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LANCIA-DELTA-INTEGRALE-2-0-TURBO-89-94-TIMING-BELT-KIT_W0QQitemZ230221349194QQihZ013QQcategoryZ100914 QQcmdZViewItem
ebay # is 230221349194
Depending on your mechanics skills, it could be a moderately easy job, but it's a lot of work. Basically, you have to remove the exhaust, drive axle to the back, the front subframe and a lot of "smaller" parts before you can get to the timing belt itself. I would suggest you read the service (workshop) manual regarding this operation before you decide to try it yourself. You will need special tools to set the tension on the belt. I have no idea if the eBay kit is the correct set, I tend to take no risks with parts like this and order original, even if the price is much higher. I would seriously consider getting a new water pump as well, while you're at it.
jimnielsen
29-05-08, 07:21
well, I changed the clutch in my Q4 - is it harder than that?
jim.
Basically, you have to remove the exhaust, drive axle to the back, the front subframe
:eek: I did not remove any of these parts, I did not see any need to either as they are not in the way.
I would seriously consider getting a new water pump as well, while you're at it.
That may be a good idea as the bearing on mine broke up a couple of years ago and you have to remove a fair amount to replace it.
As for the job itself, I can write up a walk through, will try and do it tonight. I would like comments on it though in case I miss a bit.
From seeing the work you have done in the past it should be pretty easy for you. I did not use any tensioning tools, just went on feel.
A clutch I am sure is a more involved and heavier job.
That kit has the essentials you need - its what I changed - I paid ?136 from http://www.alternativeautos.co.uk/ - I think OEM is the safest bet with these engine.
If you want to go further then as suggested you could add a water pump, air con belt, power steering belt and the alternator/water pump belt.
Basically, you have to remove the exhaust, drive axle to the back, the front subframe and a lot of "smaller" parts before you can get to the timing belt itself.
:eek::eek::eek::eek: Err...why?
Just remove the timing belt cover and it should all be there...
Sounds more like a clutch job!
wrinx
jimnielsen
29-05-08, 10:21
Thanks, Alfajack - I could really use the walkthrough. In the manual that I have (from this site) the procedure is outlined on page 1-100 of the Q4 engine manual - but this is doing with with the engine out of the car. Is there a manual that describes the process of doing it "in situ" - as access looks tight?
When you say "oem" do you mean to say that the parts from Walkers are not OEM ones? I have to get the stuff from someone who is willing to ship it to me in Australia - so it sort of narrows the field. (mind you, I'll be in London for a week in a few weeks, so maybe I could take some timing belts back in my hand luggage if I had the correct Alfa part numbers sorted?
I think I will leave the other belts as I am going to removed the AC compressor when I have a chance, and also I'll fit an electric water pump if the original one fails.
I really appreciate your help.
cheers, JimN~
Taking bits home with you might be a good option. Where are you staying? On business etc?
As for an engine in-place timing belt change manual, here you go: http://www.cloverleaf4.co.uk/tech_pdfs/timing_belt.pdf
I am sure its on Steves site, not sure where though.
Access is a bit tight but there is worse out there (Fiat Coupe 20vT)
The eBay kit is non-OEM, too cheap IMO. Walkers supply the OEM parts :)
Be aware, if the water pump fails, it will leak all the water out - usually it would be the bearing that breaks causing the big leak, not the impeller as on some V6 Alfas.
Il write up some notes later.
I was quoting the official alfa romeo manual when I said you needed to remove all the "big" bits, so that's why. See the PDF at http://www.cloverleaf4.co.uk/tech_pdfs/timing_belt.pdf. If people have tricks to do this easier, please share!
I was quoting the official alfa romeo manual when I said you needed to remove all the "big" bits, so that's why. See the PDF at http://www.cloverleaf4.co.uk/tech_pdfs/timing_belt.pdf. If people have tricks to do this easier, please share!
You neednt remove those big bits. I really think they are going over board. You just need the wheel off and the cambelt covers :)
Not done the job yet but I'd agree with Jack, there's enough room to do this without dropping the engine.
I've already binned the EGR stuff so that's a job saved too :)
wrinx
Juan AR155Q4
29-05-08, 22:57
As the guys said, it?s not necessary to remove exhaust or axle. You?ll have to remove the cover, one support of the engine (to the bone) and the pulley of the crankshaft. A difficult one is the metal cover wich is attached to the water pump by one bolt, but can be done.
jimnielsen
03-11-08, 19:26
what is the purpose of removing the main (left hand thread) bolt on the crankshaft when changing the timing / balance belts? in this doc..
http://www.fiatcoupe.net/howto.php?ID=1&chapter=9#content2
it says that you need to remove the bolt. but in the alfa document that I have for the process..(see here.. http://www.cloverleaf4.co.uk/tech.html) it does not mention it :(
does anyone have a complete copy of the "vehicle characteristics and maintenance guide" that this is taken from?
so - crank bolt out or not - and why?
**** quote from further back in this post ***
.....
Have now corrected the timing. It was one tooth out on the crank. I reckon yours would have been a tooth out in the other direction as I had less low down torque.
Anyway, it is now driving as expected power wise but I really think it does need a balancer belt as at mid to righ revs it doesnt feel right and its a bit noisier. In no rush to do it as its running well enough for the moment.
The biggest problem I have is that the bottom crank bolt will not budge! Even with our nice big new compressor its not touching it. I think the air hammer might be a bit weak though.
......
The bottom pulley is held on by a left hand threaded bolt so you've probably been tightening it up.
*** end quote ***
You won't be able to remove the timing belt without removing the pulley wheel. The guides/casting, underneath the wheel in the pic below, don't allow enough room.
http://www.fiatcoupe.net/pop_picdisplay.php?image=pics/galleries/howto_cambelt16vt_01/bigfoto04.jpg
wrinx
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